Could Solar “Sink Under the Weight of Its Own Trash”?

by James A. Bacon

Solar energy is widely regarded as the most cost-effective source of electricity available today. According to financial advisory firm Lazard, the Levelized Cost of Energy (LCOE) for solar, about $30 per MWh, is nearly half that of the most cost-effective fossil fuel, combined-cycle natural gas. The great economic advantage of solar, of course, is that is has no fuel cost. The sun is free.

Now an article in the Harvard Business Review, “The Dark Side of Solar Power,” suggests that the LCOE for solar could be four times greater when the full life-cycle cost, including recycling, is taken into account.

The problem is that solar panels contain small quantities of potentially toxic chemicals, primarily cadmium and lead. These are the very same heavy metals that caused massive freak-outs when they were found in the coal-ash waste of power plant ponds. Worried that leachate from coal ash could contaminate the water supply, environmentalists insisted that the material had to be buried in double-lined landfills at the cost of billions of dollars.

There is widespread agreement that the solar panels must be recycled. But the volume of the task will be far greater than anticipated, and the industry is totally unprepared, say the HBR authors, Atalay Atasu, Serasu Duran, and Luk N. Van Wassenhove.

Solar energy is a large component of Virginia’s electric-power mix, and it will grow significantly as the state’s electric utilities press toward the goal of a net-zero carbon electric grid by 2050. The recycling issue is unavoidable here. But there is no indication that Virginia is remotely prepared for coming crunch.

The International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA) projects that solar-panel recycling waste could total 78 million tons by 2050. That sounds like a lot, but thirty years does give us three decades to prepare. However, Atasu and his co-authors don’t believe that estimate is remotely realistic. Recycling volumes will be much higher, and the crunch will come much sooner. Ironically, one factor driving the crunch is the steadily improving productivity of the solar panels. Instead of using solar panels for their full expected life of 30 years or so, the authors say it will make financial sense for solar enthusiasts to replace them earlier to take advantage of the greater efficiencies. The result: More solar panels will need recycling.

This graph, taken from the FBR article, shows three projections. The green line charts the recycling volume if all solar panels last 30 years. The blue line shows the IRENA forecast, which allows for some replacements early in the life cycle. And the red line displays the authors’ predictions.

“If early replacements occur as predicted by our statistical model, they can produce 50 times more waste in just four years than IRENA anticipates,” they write. Add commercial and industrial panels, and the scale of replacements could be much larger.

By 2035, discarded panels would outweigh new units sold by 2.56 times. In turn, this would catapult the LCOE (levelized cost of energy, a measure of the overall cost of an energy-producing asset over its lifetime) to four times the current projection. The economics of solar — so bright-seeming from the vantage point of 2021 — would darken quickly as the industry sinks under the weight of its own trash.

A big question is who will bear the cleanup costs. The U.S. might follow the European’s WEEE Directive, apportioning recycling responsibility to manufacturers based on market share. The trouble with that is accounting for “orphan waste,” waste generated by companies that are no longer in business. Adding to the risk, the biggest manufacturers are Chinese. What happens if the Chinese government cuts its subsidies and producers fall out of the market? Who will take up the slack, and at what cost?

A similar problem looms for the wind industry — 720,000 tons of wind turbine blades could fill U.S. landfills over the next 20 years — and electric battery makers, the authors say.

Devising legislative remedies and building the infrastructure to handle this volume of “green” waste could take years, warn the authors, who, by the way, fully support the shift from fossil fuels to renewable fuels. If their analysis is sound, we need to get started now.

Bacon’s bottom line: If past is prelude, Virginia politicians won’t get around to dealing with the recycling issue until it becomes a crisis, and then the cost of dealing with it will be so much higher.

I do have one question about the article. The authors say that at current recycling capacity, it costs First Solar, the sole U.S. panel manufacturer with an up-and-running recycling program, $20 to $30 to recycle one solar panel. By contrast, it costs $1 to $2 to put it in a landfill.

Well, why not put the solar panels in a landfill? What is the obsession with recycling? The authors never address that question.

Whatever route is taken, it makes sense for Virginia to start working on the issue now, it makes sense to ensure that solar energy encompasses its full life-cycle costs, and it makes sense to ponder the implications for solar power in the Old Dominion.


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95 responses to “Could Solar “Sink Under the Weight of Its Own Trash”?”

  1. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    “These are the very same heavy metals that caused massive freak-outs when they were found in the coal-ash waste of power plant ponds. Worried that leachate from coal ash could contaminate the water supply, environmentalists insisted that the material had to be buried in double-lined landfills at the cost of billions of dollars.”

    Not quite. The leaching is a concern but so is a complete failure of the impoundment ponds – as happened in North Carolina. I see no corollary to a large scale failure of the fields containing solar panels.

    As far as dumping the solar panels in landfills – how long would it take those panels to decompose? I’m guessing nearly forever. And then there are those toxic heavy metals.

    In Virginia, why wouldn’t Dominion’s SHAREHOLDERS be on the hook for establishing a recycling fund to cover the costs of the solar panels?

    One other possibility that wasn’t mentioned was the potential elimination of all solar panels in favor of some new, yet undeveloped technology. For example, I’ve often wondered about harnessing the power of ocean tides to generate power. If something like that ever became feasible we might see a whole lot of solar panels needing disposal.

    1. My point is that environmentalists consider heavy metals to be a dangerous threat to the public health, as evidenced by their concern about coal ash. The rightness or wrongness of regulatory policy regarding coal ash is an ancillary question not relevant to the point I was making.

      1. William Cover Avatar
        William Cover

        James I agree with your point. My concern is that lobby groups use environmentalist to create public fear with the goal of nudging legislators to over regulate. The solar panel recycling industry is in it’s infancy but will lobby heavy for strict expensive procedures to recover rare earth elements or metals based on theoretical toxicity. You can always bury panels in an abandoned desert. By the way, the perceived shortage in rare earth metals has been created by the environmentalist in Europe and North America. There are plenty of rare earth elements on the planet.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I don’t know about “over-regulating” given the issues we have with things like this.

          Whether it’s the sewage ponds from raising hogs or storm water runoff from new roads or what we will do about electric auto batteries – these things are issues involving regulation because we KNOW from experience that if we do not have regulation , people WILL dump that stuff as they have with tires and coal ash.

          I just don’t understand why this is one of these “what-a-bout” issues… except it seems to come from folks who are opposed….

          We got this in spades from the anti-solar farm folks to a solar farm in Spotsy. You would have thought it was the end of the world according to them.

          Now that the project has been approved and is being built – the naysayers have disappeared…

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Naw. You’re ALWAYS pointing to those “environmentalists’ on these issues and that dog don’t hunt no more.

        On a wide, wide range of products that we make and use, there are disposal issues , I just don’t understand why it’s such a deal with solar?

        As DJ says, we DUMP coal ash in unlined pits often along waterways but NOW we try to compare that to what types of issues ther are with solar panels that will NOT be dumped in unlined pits – where is the valid comparison?

      3. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        I agree with the proviso that my “freak out” about the heavy metal in coal ash was less to do with leaching and more to do with impoundment pond failures.

        “These are the very same heavy metals that caused massive freak-outs when they were found in the coal-ash waste of power plant ponds.”

        Slow leaching of heavy metals is more “fixable” than a sudden dumping of heavy metals into a body of water.

      4. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        Human beings are terrible at risk assessment. Liberals have intense hatred for fossil fuels and will not accept single molecule of benign pollution, while they smoke on their marijuana with 10 trillion particulates into their lungs. Outrage is all about stopping activities that you hate politically, and being complacent about the risks you WANT to volunteer to take. People just don’t want anything forced on them that they hate (example COVID shot).

    2. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Tidal power exists at current. It like off-shore wind have supply chain issues, as they are very expensive.

      Tidal patterns appherently impact the efficiency of the turbines as well.

      When I was a young lad who didn’t realize that he wanted to be sparky, I often thought about creating a device that would capture lightning and reserve it for power.

      1. Brian Leeper Avatar
        Brian Leeper

        That reminded me of the clock tower scene in Back to the Future when they captured the lightning to charge up the flux capacitor.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          Yep, alas I’m not a gazilionare and you aren’t getting your charge via the last lightning storm.

          300 million volts and 30,000 amps in a single strike is going to be a hard load to capture.

      2. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        As a lad I saw potential in both lightning bugs and electric eels.

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Tidal is cool. But saltwater is one of the most insidious substances on Earth. The other most insidious substance is fresh water. Especially with electricity involved.

      One thing, at which Elon Musk excels, is taking old ideas that were untainable in their time and applying state-of-the art engineering to them. Dealing with the SEC sure isn’t.

      That said, In the 1990s, JPL developed semi-autonomous rovers for Mars. In the early 2000s, the whiz-bang boys with DARPA and the Navy went to JPL and asked, “Can you take Mars technology and create a fully autonomous USV for patroling harbors and mine-hunting, etc.

      “How hard can it be?”

      10+ years later, they finally realized that compared to a lake, let alone an ocean, Mars is a relatively benign environment.

      I know there are some tidal/current generation plants, but I believe they are still considered experimental and have never come close to their potential.

      Now, Smith Mountain Lake works,. but then, it’s still one of a kind. That’s where I see solar and wind working well — with hydro. Use the hydro to generate the power and use solar and wind to pump the water back up to the lake. The lake is the battery.

  2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    One man gathers what another man spills….

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      It’s my stuff, but your s#!t.

  3. For anyone who is wondering about the y-axis of that graph, the author used a figure of 90 tonnes per MW weight-to-power ratio in order to express waste in gigawatts.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Can you expand on that?

      90 tons per MW. Is that a reasonable number?

      1. Not sure, but they definitely did not just pull it out of their posteriors:

        https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CeYskmVtIQ8-WBnOJtJR-Iq2808nKY0S/view

        See the last paragraph on Page 10, and the related footnote.

        Seriously, it appears to be based on at least some research.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          If each panel weighs about 40 pounds and each panel is rated at 250 – 400 watts, then the panel weight should be between 50-80 tons per MW or about 45-73 tonnes.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            But that’s the total panel. Aluminum frame, glass, wire, plastic substrate, heat reflector.

            The “Unobtainium” as Wayne says is very little.

          2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Yes, but those materials still need to be recycled and the bad stuff removed. There is a cost associated with that to be sure. It will simply be rolled into the cost of the new panels like the cost of demoing and disposing of your old deck is a part of the cost of replacing it.

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Yes, but we recycle those common materials already. The cost of recycling is minute compared to creating new “stuff”.

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            If they can remove that crap from my dead Gateway and sell it back to me in my Dell, they’ll get it out of those panels and sell it back to me in my future Tesla, or LED TV, or something, maybe my next set of panels in, oh, about 2035.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          may be a reasonable number – Google thinks it takes 5000 panels to generate a MW.

          How many tons does a standard dump truck hold… approx 10 tons…maybe…

          Still not sure how relevant.

          Dismantling solar panels would seem to be a perfect task for a robot….or automated process.

          1. John Harvie Avatar
            John Harvie

            Then there’s this article which questions if we’ll have enough materials to actually make the panels projected to be needed:
            “Plenty of high-tech electronic components, like solar panels, rechargeable batteries, and complex circuits, require specific rare metals. These can include magnetic neodymium, electronic indium, and silver, along with lesser-known metals like praseodymium, dysprosium, and terbium. These metals are mined in large quantities in countries around the world, and they make their way into the supply chains of all sorts of electronics and renewables companies.”

            https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a25576543/renewable-limits-materials-dutch-ministry-infrastructure/

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            depends also on what one reads:

            BUSINESS
            The Battery Is Ready to Power the World
            After a decade of rapidly falling costs, the rechargeable lithium-ion battery is poised to disrupt industries

            https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-battery-is-ready-to-power-the-world-11612551578

            back to the half glass argument….

          3. And the most difficult rare metal of them all to acquire: Unobtainium.

            😉

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Not to be confused with adamantium equally as rare.

          5. John Harvie Avatar
            John Harvie

            cute…

          6. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            I think that might be the total weight of the panels, which is not the total weight of the toxic elements. The appropriate measure isn’t watts, it’s watt-hour. That’s saying each panel is 200W. (5000*200 = 1MW)

            My 360W panels weigh 24 lbs each. I chose them because they’re light. Assuming the 200W model weighs the same, (5000*24/2000) is 60 tons. I forgot, is a ton the same as a tonne? Those damned brits!

            I don’t think that makes sense. You don’t pitch them after an hour.

            Opps, my panels are 180w. The two gives me 360.

          7. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            The heavy parts of a solar panel are the glass and the aluminum frame. The actual solar cells don’t weigh much at all (and are quite fragile).

          8. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Not entirely true. About the fragility, that is. The old stuff would shatter with a few degrees of bend (maybe 10), but they got some new high efficiency stuff that’s flexible. Like twistable, flexible.

            Every year these panels get better and better. Like comparing a 1990 K car to a 2022 Tesla.

          9. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            The flexible ones are more expensive and not likely to be used in a fixed installation.

  4. tmtfairfax Avatar
    tmtfairfax

    Much of the problem comes from incompetent legislators making decisions about technology and markets. Of course, they are aided and bribed by rent-seeking manufacturers, trade associations and non-profits.

    Imagine what would have happened had Congress back in late 1800s, concerned about all the horse droppings in the street and their effect on public health, dictated a new form of transportation. Maybe they would have mandated steam cars powered by burning coal.

    If renewables in general and specific types thereof are, indeed, most cost-effective and reliable, the power industry would adopt them to cut costs and make more money.

    One can kick the automobile MPG standards around but, at least, the feds only set the targets and allow engineers to figure out how to meet them.

  5. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Well, try not to eat them. I assume you’ve successfully avoided chowing down on used car batteries?

  6. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    90 Tonnes per MW, eh? Any idea the weight of Hoover Dam… and the water behind it?

  7. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    My Westerbeke 5KW genset weights 334 lbs.

    1MW takes 200 of them and that’s 33.4 tons.

  8. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “According to financial advisory firm Lazard, the Levelized Cost of Energy (LCOE) for solar, about $30 per MWh, is nearly half that of the most cost-effective fossil fuel, combined-cycle natural gas.”

    Neither one of those LCOE take into account end of lifecycle costs. If solar’s LCOE increases when you add end of life cycle costs, what happens when you pile on all the end of life cycle costs associated with fossil fuels. I suspect solar still wins.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      I dunno, what shape are your vestigial gills in?

    2. tmtfairfax Avatar
      tmtfairfax

      So why does Dominion offer the option of paying more for renewable energy? And, if the costs are lower, where are the consumer advocates?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        because Virginia lets Dominion do that for residential customers, but allows (or can’t prevent) Commercial customers to buy solar at lower rates from non-Dominion solar farms.

        . Why do companies like Microsoft and Facebook buy solar from 3rd party solar companies for less instead of from Dominion?

        Dominion has invested billions of dollar in fossil fuel infrastructure to provide electricity and the terms of their monopoly agreement with Virginia allow them to recover those costs AND make a profit at it AND to deny competition from other providers.

  9. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I’m amused by this. What happens to dead fridges or heat pumps or autos tires?

    What happens to old nuke plants? How about old coal plants or their coal ash? What happens to Combined Sewer Overflow or superfund sites ?

    Do the disposal of these things change the viability and use of them in our economy?

    No. And the cost? yes, we do pay for disposal. It no different for dead fridges or dead tires or dead solar panels.

    All these decades, the UN-environmentlists – the PRO Coal folks could care not a whit about the disposal of coal ash but NOW, they’re concerned about solar?

    Give me a break.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      First Virginia dump site: Larry’s county!

      Whether or not these costs are overwhelming, it is quite clear they are not yet been accounted for, and once accounted for will change the economics totally. And the solar panels may prove a piece of cake compared to the lithium batteries we may be forced to accept and then replace in millions upon millions of vehicles.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        We went through this with the “anti” folks to the 5000 acre solar farm that got approved.

        They demanded a disposal bond – and the company had no problem doing it.

        But is this REALLY any different that what you and I are responsible for doing with our dead tires or batteries from our autos?

        What’s the real issue?

        What-about-ism on steroids! Lord. Lord.

        1. Do two wrongs make a right, Larry?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            explain please?

          2. We did not take the costs of proper disposal of coal-related waste into account when we began using coal to generate electric power. That was wrong.

            Should we now ignore the the costs of proper disposal of solar-related waste as we begin using solar collectors to generate electric power just because accounting for it is inconvenient for its proponents?

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            No. And we’re not from what I can tell. In our county , 5000 acre solar farm and one of the provisions of the permit was a plan for disposal.

            Don’t you think we’ve LEARNED from the coal ash thing and now we do better?

            JAB is playing what-about-ism in my view because he’s actually ignoring the fact that at least in the 5000 acre farm – they DO have a disposal plan AND it’s on the investors.

            A BETTER blogpost would be to maybe ask the question than show how it is currently being handled – properly on at least some solar farms.

            Instead – it’s boogeyman what-a-boutism…

      2. Thank you. The proper disposal of waste from solar power is not the issue – presumably it will be required to be disposed of properly.

        The issue is that the uber-pro-solar people have not taken the cost of proper disposal of solar-related waste into account when doing their economic projections on the viability of solar. I suspect that ultimately solar can be made economically viable, but we can’t know that for sure unless we account for all costs associated with its use.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          any more or less than other things like coal ash or hog sewage?

          why is this a “what-about” issue in the first place?

          One presumes that it will be done right and if not – there will be cries to do it right – like we did with coal ash or auto tires or a lot of other things.

          I think that solar panels will likely end up being like lead-acid batteries or used motor oil – the economy will figure that out but it’s not a reason to not do solar IMHO, no more than “what-about” we do with dead fridges.

          1. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            Does that mean that military bases will be burying solar panels when private industry is recycling them?

            I read the environmental report for Quantico. As late as 1983, their disposal method for car batteries was to pour the acid out onto the ground and bury the rest.

            I’m pretty sure that by 1983 the private sector was recycling car batteries….

          2. …but it’s not a reason to not do solar IMHO…

            Who said it was? Please provide names.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            When you play “what-about-ism” why would you imply a problem to start with?

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Pointing out it’s not all roses and sunshine is tantamount to being “anti” now a days.

          5. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            Does that mean that military bases will be burying solar panels when private industry is recycling them?

            I read the environmental report for Quantico. As late as 1983, their disposal method for car batteries was to pour the acid out onto the ground and bury the rest.

            I’m pretty sure that by 1983 the private sector was recycling car batteries….

      3. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        First NYC & NJ dump site: Virginia.

    2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “What happens to old nuke plants? How about old coal plants or their coal ash? What happens to Combined Sewer Overflow or superfund sites ?”

      To say nothing of old oilfields and their wells…. Google orphaned wells in the US sometime…

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        orphaned frack gas sites, also.

        The “anti” solar folks have a neverending list of what-about but never about other things…

        JAB – “round-robins” issues but this is one he ought to retire… it’s has no legs just warts.

    3. Brian Leeper Avatar
      Brian Leeper

      ” What happens to dead fridges or heat pumps or autos tires?”

      They often get placed next to a big sign that reads “NO DUMPING”

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        some do but most do not…. and what role do you and I play in disposal? What do you do with a dead fridge? Let me guess! Do you CARE what will happen to your fridge when it dies? Do you pay a fee for it’s disposal when you buy it? Why not?

        1. Brian Leeper Avatar
          Brian Leeper

          If I had a dead fridge I would take it to the Prince William County landfill because I am not a slob and respect other’s property rights. Which is not true of the people who just dump it somewhere.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yes. But what if that nasty govt didn’t accept them, then what? What would be your responsibility?

            Here’s a thought. What about that good old “free market” when you had to pay someone to take it? Would you? Would most?

            Is this a role from that nasty old government?

            Being a paddler of rivers, I can tell you what happens to tires and fridges in places where the govt doesn’t take care of the issue.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yes. But what if that nasty govt didn’t accept them, then what? What would be your responsibility?

            Here’s a thought. What about that good old “free market” when you had to pay someone to take it? Would you? Would most?

            Is this a role from that nasty old government?

            Being a paddler of rivers, I can tell you what happens to tires and fridges in places where the govt doesn’t take care of the issue.

          3. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            I suppose I would find a private recycler that would take the fridge and pay whatever is necessary to get rid of it.

            Another option is to put it in the front of the driveway with a sign saying “FOR SALE $50”, which will almost ensure that it gets stolen.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            or when you buy, you make sure to ask if they take the old one and how much it costs?

            My county BTW – will take old latex paint but not oil-based.

            I ask where to take it and they say – the once-a year hazardous waste day. I wonder what happens to oil-based paint…in my county much more than I do what happens to dead solar panels.

          5. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            What I read about disposing of oil based paint is to pour it into a tray and let it dry, then dispose of what’s left as normal trash.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I asked the green box attendant and he said how much and I said about 1/4 of a gallon and he said “throw it in”. 😉

          7. You can speed up the drying by dumping some kitty litter into the paint. Our landfill requires that (or sand) even for latex paint.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Interesting. Our county takes the liquid latex paint – even 5 gallon pails but no oil-based paints at all, even though they take used motor oil (but no antifreeze).

            Back in the day, people used to dump a lot of this stuff in a nearby ditch or on their gravel drive… maybe some still do.

        2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          These days, cost for disposal of the old refrigerator is usually wrapped in the cost of the new one. Same with tires, used oil, etc. This is exactly what will happen with solar panels. What JAB does not account for is that a portion of the increased efficiencies for future panels will be allocated to recycling and/or disposal of old panels.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yes, he completely ignores the role of the free market in determining what to do with solar no different than other things like tires and lead acid batteries!

          2. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            Larry, do you even understand the “free market”? There is almost no history of it addressing recycling issues until the regulatory apparatus gets involved.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I do BIll. But we’re way downstream of things like coal ash and old tires… we DO have regulatory policies now. I pointed out that in our county a 5000 acres solar farm was REQUIRED to produce a disposal plan as a condition of approval – something Jim just ignores in his what-about-ism.

          4. Just our of curiosity, do you have a copy of the approved disposal plan?

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Reminds me a scene in office space.

            “Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the g*d d*mn customers so the engineers don’t have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can’t you understand that?”

            They have a plan, I don’t know what that plan is, but they have a plan and it’s wonderful.

            It’s almost Trumpesk.

          6. Lowes just hauled away our old washing machine when they delivered the new one, at no additional charge.

            I think they’ll do the same for a fridge.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I doubt that someone takes them for free but admit I don’t know. And I don’t know if they recycle them or squash them and landfill them or what.

            But then again, should I worry any more about them than I would solar panels or old tires?

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “But then again, should I worry any more about them than I would solar panels or old tires?”

            So preserving the earth isn’t the goal?

          9. Well, maybe they had a “special” going at the time, but Lowes also took away the old unit the last time we had a refrigerator delivered – and that may be the case because the delivery was also free.

            It certainly makes sense to charge a fee for disposal of anything with refrigerant in it. Having once been responsible for operating a landfill, I can tell you that legally, any refrigerant remaining in the unit must be recaptured before a refrigerator or freezer (or air conditioner) can be scrapped, whether it’s to be fully recycled, partially recycled or crushed and land-filled.

            And refrigerant recapture is not cheap.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Don’t tell that to the fellas claiming to get HVAC repairmen that vent it to the atmosphere like it’s O2.

          11. I know it happens, but it is illegal.

            I’m no hard-core environmentalist, but that stuff is not good for the atmosphere. It should not be intentionally released.

          12. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I concur.

            However, it appears someone has admitted that they don’t really care about the environment.

            “I doubt that someone takes them for free but admit I don’t know. And I don’t know if they recycle them or squash them and landfill them or what.

            But then again, should I worry any more about them than I would solar panels or old tires?”

          13. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            When we did our appliance last year it was $25 a head at Home Depot.

          14. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Appliance installation and removal is an additional fee on top of the appliance. The same for tires, the only item you mention that is recycled for free is motor oil.

          15. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            Much recycled motor oil is burned as fuel. Some of it is re-refined into new motor oil, but I suspect that only happens when it doesn’t involve transporting the used oil long distances to a refiner.

          16. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I never questioned what Advanced did with the oil, but figured it was better than using it for fires like when I was a kid.

            Granted it’s an out of sight out of mind approach, but they were probably going to follow regulations more then I was.

          17. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            Virginia used to (maybe still does?) offer a 50% tax credit on waste oil shop heaters for businesses that accept used oil from the public. Ran across that one doing my taxes a few years ago.

          18. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            Much recycled motor oil is burned as fuel. Some of it is re-refined into new motor oil, but I suspect that only happens when it doesn’t involve transporting the used oil long distances to a refiner.

          19. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Removal and disposal will ALWAYS be an additional fee on the actual price of the new appliance, tire, oil, deck, etc. The only question is whether it is specifically identified as such on the invoice. The point is, demo and disposal of the old array will be wrapped up with the installation of the new array and the cost will be part of the calculus as to whether replacement is financially appealing.

          20. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            There currently exists no plan no method to do so.

            Shouldn’t that have been a forethought rather than an afterthought if you truly cared about the environment?

          21. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            There currently exists no plan no method to do so.

            Shouldn’t that have been a forethought rather than an afterthought if you truly cared about the environment?

            PS: Upvoting yourself is a sure sign of mental health problems that or you didn’t log out of your sock account for the other.

  10. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Then, on the other hand, name just one product for which recycling, and the costs of doing so, were determined BEFORE they started filling ravines… and cemeteries.

    1. Brian Leeper Avatar
      Brian Leeper

      Copper. It’s a lot less dangerous to steal, err, recycle if you turn the power off first…

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        catalytic converter recycling…. 😉

        1. Brian Leeper Avatar
          Brian Leeper

          Just make sure not to use a cheap jack, otherwise, it could be crushing…

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            uh.. I’m not sure that the folks that do that are genius… right?

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