USS Gerald R. Ford with Carrier Air Wing 8 embarked. Official Navy photo.

by James C. Sherlock

The U.S. Navy has sailed towards the sounds of battle for more than 200 years.

This time it is responding to the largest mass murder of Jews since the Holocaust.

Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin ordered the Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group, already in the Mediterranean Sea as part of permanently increased presence in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, to move to east as a reaction to Saturday’s attacks in Israel.

The Israelis will deal with Gaza.

The repositioning, crucial for our Israeli ally and our own regional interests, holds at deadly risk other actors in the region that may consider joining in the battle.

The officers and sailors in that battle group are mostly Virginians.

Let’s look at Carrier Strike Group 12.

Carrier
USS Gerald R. Ford (CVN-78), homeported in Norfolk.

Carrier Air Wing 8
Carrier Air Wing 8 (CVW 8), stationed at Naval Air Station Oceana, Va., is embarked aboard Ford and includes nine squadrons.

  • The “Ragin’ Bulls” of Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 37 – F/A-18F – from Naval Air Station Oceana
  • The “Blacklions” of VFA 213 – F/A-18F – from Naval Air Station Oceana
  • The “Golden Warriors” of VFA 87 – F/A-18F – from Naval Air Station Oceana
  • The “Tomcatters” of VFA 31 – F/A-18F – from Naval Air Station Oceana
  • The “Gray Wolves” of Electronic Attack Squadron (VAQ) 142 – EA-18G – from Naval Air Station Whidbey Island
  • The “Bear Aces” of Airborne Command and Control Squadron (VAW) 124 – E-2D – from Naval Air Station Norfolk
  • The “Rawhides” of Fleet Logistics Support Squadron (VRC) 40 – C-2A – from Naval Air Station Norfolk
  • The “Spartans” of Helicopter Maritime Strike Squadron (HSM) 70 – MH-60R – from Naval Air Station Jacksonville
  • The “Tridents” of Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron (HSC) 9 – MH-60S – from Naval Air Station Norfolk

Cruiser
USS Normandy (CG-60), homeported at Norfolk

Destroyer Squadron 2
USS Carney (DDG-64) homeported at Mayport, Fla.
USS Roosevelt (DDG-80) – homeported at Naval Station Rota in Spain.
USS Ramage (DDG-61), homeported at Norfolk.
USS Thomas Hudner (DDG-116), homeported at Mayport, Fla.

Submarines.  There will be attack submarines within Tomahawk range of the battle from Norfolk, New London or both.

Bottom Line.  The battle group brings to bear an enormous breadth and depth of capabilities including

  • Command and control;
  • Block IV Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles (TLAM) and a wide range of air-wing-delivered weapons;
  • non-combatant evacuation;
  • search and rescue;
  • support to special operations;
  • intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance collection and processing;
  • complete onboard medical and dental teams and facilities; and
  • heavy seaborne logistics from the Military Sealift Command.

Those capabilities are in range and employable now without permission of a host nation.

Carrier Air Wing 8 and TLAM are fearsome weapons meant to deter, and if deterrence fails, destroy enemies at the direction of the national command authority.

It is mostly Virginians at the battle stations and in the aircraft, protecting U.S. interests and those of an ally brutally attacked.

Godspeed.


Share this article



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)


Comments

97 responses to “Virginians Sail Towards Gaza”

  1. Yeah – but sleepy Joe only retaliates against MAGA Republicans… he won’t bomb Hezbollah nor Iran…. the other ones responsible for this terrorist invasion outside of the PA

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      You can’t be that foolish. I hope hostage rescues are the focus, but it might go much further.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Hostage rescues are the things of movies and incredible luck. Hostage escapes are more probable.

        Entebbe was good and bad. Good in that it worked. Bad in that it makes even good military planners think it could happen again.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          The Israeli special forces have already rescued 50.

          As a footnote, the Entebbe rescue was led by Lt. Col. Yonatan Netanyahu. He was the only Israeli killed in the rescue.

          He, his younger brother Benjamin and their younger brother Iddo all served in served in Sayeret Matkal, Israel’s lead special forces unit. All three commanded it.

          Benjamin you have heard of since.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Entebbe was almost perfect. It was at the airport. Had the moved the hostages a few kilometers away, the outcome could have been horrific.

            What are the circumstances about the 50 rescues? Were they inside Gaza, or intercepted before getting back. That is, are these planned as rescues or happenstance as the result of conflict outside the fences?

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            A non-answer. A lack of knowledge.

            Retired in 96, you went OBE by 27 years. I’m OBE by 13.

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            A non-answer. A lack of knowledge.

            Retired in 96, you went OBE by 27 years. I’m OBE by 13.

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            A non-answer. A lack of knowledge.

            Retired in 96, you went OBE by 27 years. I’m OBE by 13.

          5. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            I try to keep up. The developments in the last decade in fielded weapons have improved precision, improved warheads, loitering, in-flight-reprogramming, BDA from weapons in flight and other advances.

            What you apparently want is the Joint Multiple Effects Warhead System (JMEWS) coming in Tomahawk Block Vb. So does the Navy.

            The Full-Rate Production (FRP) contract, Lot 18, marks the first multi-service procurement for Tomahawk, which further expands integration into new firing platforms for the Marine Corps and Army. Good procurement.

            The big misses have been in strategic systems – the lack of hypersonic weapons and defenses against them. Both are coming, but when? is the question.

          6. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Multi-service? Does that mean the AF is finally accepting they made a mistake in dropping it, and letting the Navy get it? Still makes up for Vanguard.

            I just as soon not keep up. No point anymore. I saw you at least told Walt that the Israelis don’t have Tomahawks. I sincerely doubt we’ll be transferring that technology to them either. I don’t think their platforms are capable anyway, plus training. We’re likely just to give them more of what we have given them

            Plus, it’s not likely we’ll be shooting anything either. The carrier group is deterrence. I hope we don’t get anywhere near Gaza. Br’er Fox doesn’t want that again.

          7. Lefty665 Avatar

            the lack of hypersonic weapons and defenses against them.

            Those and other technology developments have made our carrier groups look much like big targets. Sure hope that does not get tested, now or ever. Asymmetric warfare is a bitch.

            Remember the Liberty. Don’t trust the Israelis. It is not just Palestinians. They murder American sailors and spooks too. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

          8. Lefty665 Avatar

            While this may stall his departure to jail for corruption, it will not likely prevent it.

  2. David Wojick Avatar
    David Wojick

    Magnificent. Unfortunately that is for fighting a war, not terrorists living in crowded arpartment complexes. But it will certainly keep neighboring countries from sending in tanks. Those 18Fs would love tanks in the desert.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      David, this is a war.

      The Tomahawks and some of the air-delivered munitions can strike through a specific window of an apartment building. Just need to know which window.

      Very accurate, but make a pretty big mess.

      Responding to the massacre while avoiding civilian casualties will be impossible, even with ground forces. Hamas could not care less.

      But unlike Hamas, the Israelis and Americans neither target civilians nor hide behind them.

      1. David Wojick Avatar
        David Wojick

        True but you do not need a carrier battle group to deliver a Tom strike. The Israeli ground forces can do that quite well. The point of the group is to keep everybody else back. Eqypt, Syria, Iran, etc. It is strategic not tactical.

        1. Iran has been there from the being.. this was planned in the JIC it established with Hamas & Hezbollah last year in Lebanon.

          1. David Wojick Avatar
            David Wojick

            I am referring to the full scale Iranian Army, tanks not influencers.

          2. Those were not Iranian ‘influencers’ – they were IRGC commanders Iranian political leaders [clerics] …..and Hezbollah has shown its new ability at combined arms ops with IRGC support in Syria

          3. David Wojick Avatar
            David Wojick

            Still not tanks.

          4. Just missiles and rockets, RPGs and AK-47s…. Iran also just built an airstrip along the IS-Leb border… but yeah, no tanks excepts those destroyed by the IDF in Syria.

          5. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Psst, I don’t think Iran has a missile capable of reaching Israel, but I’ll let you tell him. Last time I checked, they had one with a 1200Km range. Might hit the West Bank. Of course, maybe Iraq will let ‘em move up.

          6. Iran has been moving hardware into Syria for some years… most have been destroyed by the IDF, but not all. Tehran has also set up production sites in Syria

        2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          A couple of points in reply.

          First, the Israelis don’t have Tomahawks.

          Second, you assume that Tomahawks are all that will be needed.

          Apparently the theater commander disagrees. His call. The White House likes the multi-mission flexibility a battle group offers.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Uh, Captain? When carrying a warhead the size of the JSOW unitary, SLAM-ER, JDAM**, or Tomahawk, the word “precision” applies only to the impact point, not the dead.

        ** fortunately, the 250lb variety developed only after realizing civilian casualties in Iraq with the 2000lb, is readily available. Still.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          So now you are a weaponeering planner in your spare time? Give it a rest.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            I got paid. Unless things have changed, the CEP of GPS weapons like JDAM was bigger than your window, more like your house. This is because of the error in the vertical channel.

            The MITL weapons, e.g., JSOW-C, SLAM-ER reduce this considerably since the aimpoint can be changed on the ROB, albeit with communication and processing delays. In their case, your window is that window, or any adjacent one.

            Still, according to the last version of the JMEM I saw, those weapons will destroy the entire building.

          2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            “I got paid.” So did I.

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Good for you. You even had the opportunity to use them.

            You got to use the capability that I put in them.

          4. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            The technical RDT&E community in which you served is absolutely necessary, as are their operational T&E counterparts. I had a tour in the F-14 OT&E project at VX-4 for the OPEVAL of the F-14.

            But the operational military plans, and goes to war, with what they have, both in the weapons magazines of the carriers and Tomahawk vessels and in the air wings.

            Precision weapons, never in unlimited supply, often have to be preserved for the targets for which they were specifically designed.

            Warheads on PGMs of specific designs do not make them general purpose weapons. The JMEWS warhead coming for Tomahawk Block V is meant to expand TLAM utility against both hardened targets and large area targets. That will still not cover all of the target requirements. TLAMs will never be available in unlimited numbers and cannot like air wing weapons be replenished at sea even from existing inventories, but Block V will help.

            Operational planners use tactical considerations like approach angles and altitudes, weapons CEP and warhead effects and survivability of both the weapon and the aircraft in their work.

            They very carefully develop plans for each target to maximize desired effects and minimize undesired effects.

            I personally weaponeered targets pretty much every week when deployed. Those operational constraints were real constraints. We often had to actually fly those missions, which tends to focus the mind when planning.

      3. Remember– Hamas is part of the joint PA government – along with Fatah… what has Abbas said? Does Fatah support this war? If so…… come what may in the West Bank too — where the IRGC militias like the Lion’s Den are located and operate.

      4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        “David, this is a war.”

        Are you saying we are “at war”?

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Get another drink.

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Just more libel from a BR contributor that would get others suspended.

  3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    I hope the wargamers at the Pentagon remember what happened in Beirut, October 1983.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      I hope Biden waits more than 3 days between saying he will not “cut and run” and announcing that we are “cutting and running”.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      I hope Biden waits more than 3 days between saying he will not “cut and run” and announcing that we are “cutting and running”.

      USS Liberty.

    3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      The military planners are not at the Pentagon but rather in this case at Central Command in Tampa.

      I guarantee that the Central Command planners remember Beirut. They also remember Afghanistan.

      The operational military carries out the missions directed by the national command authority, not what it necessarily thinks is best.

      A democracy would not have it any other way.

      So it is the National Security Council that you should worry about. I have no faith in that organization at all under its current leadership.

      The NSC is chaired by the President. See the President’s priorities at https://www.whitehouse.gov/priorities/

      See the National Security Advisor’s resume at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Sullivan .

      Together the President and Mr. Sullivan simply have demonstrated no grasp of the reality of what they have done to the world order.

      Since our dreadfully executed retreat from Afghanistan, the world is a much more dangerous place.

      That demonstrated weakness created a vacuum filled by tyrants.

      The Russians invaded Ukraine. Hamas invaded Israel. The Chinese will soon invade Taiwan.

      We have to make a military stand somewhere to put some steel back into the Pax Americana. If not in support of Israel, where?

  4. Proportionate response?
    When dealing with a sociopathic cult, the only proportionate response may be the one that seems disproportionate.

  5. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    If you are not expecting a massively disproportionate response from Netanyahooty, you’ve not been paying attention. It will be unfortunate if we are seen providing heavy weapons that are used indiscriminately with massive civilian casualties.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      agree.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Seriously Nancy? George Soros has made the cut in this discussion?

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            It’s the 4 bed buddies

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      The word “indiscriminately” gravely mischaracterizes Israeli and American military planning.

      We and they risk military lives to avoid civilian casualties.

      Whether others “see” it as such depends upon the press.

      So yeah, the world press will characterize the preservation of Israel as massively disproportionate. And many will believe it. Some things we just have to deal with.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar

        Sounds pretty indiscriminate. There’s a million children in the Gaza Strip.

        Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group.

        “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.

        “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds.

        https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          “Sounds pretty indiscriminate.”

          Consider that the massacred Israeli kids were not yours.

          Consider that Hamas should have thought of their children before the savagery.

          Give us your recommendation of what should happen now.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            You changed the subject it was indiscriminate murder of Palestinians by Israelis that you said does not happen. It has happened, it is happening, and it is continuing to happen. It is a crime against humanity.

            Hamas sucks too, but 2 wrongs, as you know, do not make a right. The Israelis have been murdering Palestinians, stealing their property and essentially holding them prisoner for 75 years. That does not make Hamas’s violence ok any more than Israel’s.

            Cease fire, trade hostages and prisoners, Free Gaza, implement 2 states, get Israelis out of the West Bank, and Golan Heights for that matter, end apartheid and Israel’s stranglehold on US policy. I won’t hold my breath. Oh, and throw that corrupt, murdering b*trd Netanyahoo in the slammer along with several of his criminal cabinet members and his corrupt wife.

            ps, Remember the Liberty. The Israelis need to be prosecuted for the murder of 34 American sailors and spooks and the wounding of 171 more.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Cease fire, trade hostages and prisoners, Free Gaza, implement 2 states, get Israelis out of the West Bank, and Golan Heights for that matter, end apartheid and Israel’s stranglehold on US policy. I won’t hold my breath. Oh, and throw that corrupt, murdering b*trd Netanyahoo in the slammer along with several of his criminal cabinet members and his corrupt wife.”

            No, not even the most basic level. Hamas, will not return “hostages”, they will torture them and kill them (they’ve already begun doing so). They have also been offered a two state solution multiple times over the years, they don’t want that. They want an eradication of Israel.

            Your hatred of Netanyahoo is clouding your judgement and it’s very evident you should back away before commenting.

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3

          3. Lefty665 Avatar

            Hamas is evil, too. I have no brief for them. In the past they and Israel have traded hostages and prisoners, there’s hope they will do it again. Dead hostages do Hamas no good, so there’s some chance they will keep them alive for that.

            The Israeli domination of US policy has been an abomination for many decades. Murdering, corrupt Netanyahoo is simply the poster child for that.

            Here’s a book that documents several of the corrupt, thieving and abusive Israeli practices that have gone unpunished in the US. ” Spyfail: Foreign Spies, Moles, Saboteurs, and the Collapse of America’s Counterintelligence”

            https://www.amazon.com/s?k=james+bamford&ref=nb_sb_noss

            Remember the Liberty and the Israeli murder of US service men. Remember also Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard who conducted perhaps the biggest ever compromise of US secrets. He got a hero’s welcome in Israel attended by Netanyahoo and all the Israeli spooks when he returned “home” after getting out of prison here.

            It is long past time for the US to wake up and throw off the leash of Israeli domination and subversion of US interests. With friends like Israel, who needs enemies?

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Hamas is evil, too. I have no brief for them. In the past they and Israel have traded hostages and prisoners, there’s hope they will do it again. Dead hostages do Hamas no good, so there’s some chance they will keep them alive for that.”

            You mean the one hostages that Israel released who is now the head of Hamas? They are not interested in doing anything but eradicating the Jews, they’ve admitted to such. They have already started killing them.

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/09/israel-hamas-hostage-death/

            “The Israeli domination of US policy has been an abomination for many decades. Murdering, corrupt Netanyahoo is simply the poster child for that.”

            Again, your hatred of Netanyahoo is clouding your judgement and he hasn’t been in power for “many decades”. Israel is the only stable Government to which the US allies itself in that region.

            Mr. Bamford is a lot of things, knowledgeable outside of unfounded conspiracy theories isn’t one of them.

            https://freebeacon.com/national-security/no-israel-did-not-rig-the-2016-election/

            “Remember the Liberty and the Israeli murder of US service men. Remember also Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard who conducted perhaps the biggest ever compromise of US secrets. He got a hero’s welcome in Israel attended by Netanyahoo and all the Israeli spooks when he returned “home” after getting out of prison here.

            It is long past time for the US to wake up and throw off the leash of Israeli domination and subversion of US interests. With friends like Israel, who needs enemies?”

            1967 was 56 years ago and Jonathan Pollard was compromised long before 1987 and Israel, 1980 and South Africa to be exact if not earlier. The machine that is the US Government, gave him back his clearance even after he was caught giving up secrets.

            Given the amount of NAZI’s the US welcomed via operation paperclip, to say that they didn’t have the best interests of our allies (Israel) in mind, isn’t hard to see. Also, the United States CIA does the exact process that was used in Pollards case even against our allies as well.

          5. Lefty665 Avatar

            So since the CIA does it too it’s ok? The CIA also tortured people post 911, does that make torture ok for Hamas or Israel? I don’t think so, and I trust neither do you.

            Bamford is a good journalist. If you have not read them his series of books on NSA are the premier open information sources on the Agency. You embarrass yourself by blowing him off as a conspiracy theorist.

            Since you discount the older Israeli murder and spying on the US you can read the book of his I linked for more recent evidence of Israeli treachery.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “So since the CIA does it too it’s ok?”

            It’s point to the fact that the feigned outrage is unwarranted. Much like the teeth gnashing over “election interference” is all but pointless, we do, everyone does it.

            “The CIA also tortured people post 911, does that make torture ok for Hamas or Israel? I don’t think so, and I trust neither do you.”

            That’s a rather large leap and lacking a logical progression. I’m speaking on spying, at least Israel has the stones to say they are an asset and try to help them. The US and CIA just disavows and lets them before a nameless star on a wall in Langley.

            Bamford is not a good journalist, he’s not premier in anything but telling a story. No, I brush him off because people who actually know what happens have indicated he’s full of it.

            “Since you discount the older Israeli murder and spying on the US you can read the book of his I linked for more recent evidence of Israeli treachery.”

            The article I provided you spoke on his recent book and it like the ones on the NSA are full of things he pulled out of his blender, some true, others wildly exaggerated because the reality would be boring. It’s not Jack Ryan and James Bond.

          7. Lefty665 Avatar

            The people I knew at the Agency, and who were in a position to know, all respected Bamford as a damn good journalist. They were less charitable about the big mouths who talked to him.

            His books provide the largest body of open source reporting on NSA prior to Snowden. They include:

            The Puzzle Palace
            Body of Secrets
            The Shadow Factory
            and Pretext for War on how Duhbya and the Neo Cons manipulated us into invading Iraq. That was published in 2004 before the election.

            The other essential book on cryptography and the NSA is Kahn’s The Codebreakers.

            If you are interested in being informed they are essential reading, along with Snowden.

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I’d have to disagree with their opinion of Mr. Bamford’s work, the only thing he seems to do is hate Israel.

            https://www.camera.org/article/bamford-bashes-israel/

            All of his works are Anti-Israel, they offer little if anything else outside of that.

            “and Pretext for War on how Duhbya and the Neo Cons manipulated us into invading Iraq. That was published in 2004 before the election.”

            Much like Trump, Bush II has been labeled dimwitted and worse and in another breath a mastermind of this highest order. That simply doesn’t work, you can be either one or both. The person whom you should lay the blame for Iraq on, would be Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney.

            It also just followed the pattern that the Agency and the like have followed for a very long time, the back someone and ignore their dirty laundry when it’s expedient and turn on them when it suits their needs.

            If you want a book about cryptography, I suggest you read “The Education of a Poker Player”.

            Snowden did good and then ran away like a coward right to someone who doesn’t have our best interests in mind. If you’re going to blow the whistle or spills the beans, have the fortitude to put your name to it and take your lumps.

          9. Lefty665 Avatar

            Your ignorance of the modern literature is your personal choice. I can lead a horse to water, but that’s it.

            Yardley’s “The American Black Chamber” was for a long time close to the only open source book on cryptography. A dog eared first edition is on my bookshelf. My mother went to Yardley’s funeral at Ft. Meyer. She said it was an interesting gathering. The different spooks, both foreign and domestic, sat well apart. They far outnumbered the couple of family members who were there. I don’t doubt he was a good poker player too, but that was incidental to what was interesting about his life.

            Yardley’s story of his subsequent adventures in China “The Chinese Black Chamber: An Adventure in Espionage” is also worth reading.

            We are so far off topic it is past time for this to cease. Catch you on another day when we most often agree.

            ps: Snowden did not “run to” anyone. Dimwit Kerry as Sec State pulled Snowden’s passport while he was in transit in the international terminal at Sheremetyevo airport in Moscow awaiting a flight out. That left him stuck in Russia,

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Your ignorance of the modern literature is your personal choice. I can lead a horse to water, but that’s it.”

            Mr. Bamford isn’t modern literature, he writes narratives to sell books. They contain within them half truths and exaggerations. I provided you with a rebuttal to his works, but it appears that has fallen on deaf ears.

            The American Black Chamber draws from the education of a poker play, it’s an easy read.

            Roger that.

            “ps: Snowden did not “run to” anyone. Dimwit Kerry as Sec State pulled Snowden’s passport while he was in transit in the international terminal at Sheremetyevo airport in Moscow awaiting a flight out. That left him stuck in Russia,”

            Well no one has ever accused Fmr. SoS Kerry of being of sound mind or reason. Either way, it would’ve been better if Snowden would’ve taken his licks here, all he did was diminish his case running abroad. As it were, he most likely been “asked” to providing information to Russia.

          11. Lefty665 Avatar

            “literature” is a term of IC art, as in “open literature” as I first used it and abbreviated it the second time as “modern (referring to open) literature”.

            Your link is to semitic trash denying that Israel knowingly attacked the Liberty and accusing Bamford of anti-semitism for adding cooberating details.

            The semites really just did not like his detailed and extensively footnoted documentation of Israeli theft, espionage and seditious activities in the US. I suggest you read his book so you have first hand knowledge rather than relying on a slanderous review that is exactly the kind of seditious Israeli behavior Bamford documents in detail.

            The Liberty’s own intercepts of Israeli pilots and boat captains questioning their orders to fire on the Liberty and its large American flag, and their confirming orders to proceed with the attacks document that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing. That was the premeditated murder of American sailors and spooks.

          12. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Your link is to semitic trash denying that Israel knowingly attacked the Liberty and accusing Bamford of anti-semitism for adding cooberating details.”

            Um that’s an ad him attack and Mr. Bamford’s reporting is reminiscent of 1930’s Germany, so if the shoe fits.

            He provided nothing substantial, it was also supposition. He’s a hack and his “open source” reporting is just restating known argument, without anything further.

            Well the IC disagrees with Mr. Bamford and your opinions.

          13. Lefty665 Avatar

            You don’t know what Bamford reports, you have not read what he writes. Instead you swallow the kind of slanderous Israeli propaganda that they have inundated us with for decades. You make Bamford’s points precisely. Thanks for demonstrating Israeli sedition.

            Ha ha, more IC belly laughs. Keep up the funny work. 🙂

          14. Lefty665 Avatar

            You don’t know what Bamford reports, you have not read what he writes. Instead you swallow the kind of slanderous Israeli propaganda that they have inundated us with for decades. You make Bamford’s points precisely. Thanks for demonstrating Israeli sedition.

            Ha ha, more IC belly laughs. Keep up the funny work. 🙂

          15. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            You’re right, I don’t read propaganda nor spy novels, they are wildly unrealistic.

            “Instead you swallow the kind of slanderous Israeli propaganda that they have inundated us with for decades. You make Bamford’s points precisely. Thanks for demonstrating Israeli sedition.”

            My citations are form CIA case officers and other members of that Agency. I don’t think they qualify as “Israeli’s”.

            I see no point to continue this, as you’re unable to handle any criticism of Mr. Bamford regardless of his inaccuracies being pointed out.

          16. Lefty665 Avatar

            Thanks for once again illustrating the danger to our country when well meaning people swallow Israeli propaganda and attacks on Americans as anti semitic when they report on Israeli propaganda operations. Character assassination like you linked to about Bamford and repeat as fact is precisely the kind of thing he writes about and documents.

            Again, thank you for illustrating the problem. Please do it some more to help make sure folks understand the damage done by Israeli propaganda, accusations of anti-semitism and the danger to our country when well meaning people swallow it and repeat it.

          17. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Completely and utterly baseless statement, the crux of the issue is that you yourself have fallen hook, line, and sinker for Mr. Bamfords statements. Which unfortunately, are not based in facts and those whom he has quoted, have asked him to make retractions regarding the Liberty.

            The common theme throughout Mr. Bamfords books is to blame Israel. He’s even went so far as to state in his most recent work that Israel got Trump elected and interfered with the election.

            The book reviews that don’t worship him point that his facts are not facts and his timelines are off.

            I’m sorry, but that is factual and I’m not the only person to say this.

          18. Lefty665 Avatar

            You have remarkably strong opinions about Bamford’s reporting for someone who has never read a single word of it.

            You also fail to understand that it is only his most recent book that deals in part with Israeli thievery, lies, deception and propaganda in the context of the failure of America’s counterintelligence. The rest of his books document the IC in general and the NSA in particular. His body of work is highly respected.

            Keep up the good work as a tool of Israeli propaganda. You are doing a great job reinforcing Bamford’s recent research and reporting and you provide a clear example of Israel’s danger to our country.

            I’m done with this interchange. Come back when you have actually read some of what you so adamantly criticize. That will give you standing to have an opinion. FWIW, the last 62 pages are footnotes and sourcing for his reporting.

            “Spyfail: Foreign Spies, Moles, Saboteurs, and the Collapse of America’s Counterintelligence”

            https://www.amazon.com/Spyfail-Saboteurs-Collapse-Americas-Counterintelligence/dp/1538741156/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2COS5RWN44U56&keywords=james+bamford&qid=1697157460&sprefix=james+bamford%2Caps%2C1987&sr=8-1

          19. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “You also fail to understand that it is only his most recent book that deals in part with Israeli thievery, lies, deception and propaganda in the context of the failure of America’s counterintelligence. The rest of his books document the IC in general and the NSA in particular. His body of work is highly respected.”

            Every single book he’s written lays blame on Israel. Are you sure you’ve read his work?

            In the if the saying is garbage in garbage out and he is the poster child.

            Accusing people of propaganda is amusing when you’re parroting talking points from someone who has been refuted by numerous sources.

            I don’t have to read it, I’ve read reviews by agency employees who say it a all bull.

            Edit: I made an appeal to authority and it was a hasty response.

            The following points out what I’m discussing:

            https://www.thecipherbrief.com/column_article/catching-spies-is-a-tricky-business

            Body of Secrets:
            https://www.camera.org/article/bamford-bashes-israel/

            The Shadow Factory:
            https://forward.com/news/14433/debate-flares-over-israel-s-access-to-american-s-02715/

            As you can see, Mr. Bamford has a pattern, of blaming Israel for everything that is bad in the US IC.

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Shock & Awe… bombing a city. I’m sure it will be of great comfort to the dead civilians, um, er, collateral casualties, that expensive precision guided bombs will be used as opposed to the cheaper iron bombs.

          https://comw.org/pda/0402rm9-Disappearing-the-Dead.html

          1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Guided bombs, which are clearly being used by Israel in the retaliatory strikes, are iron bombs with guidance packages.

            I suspect all of the IAF “iron bombs” can be built up with GPS, EO or other guidance and control packages. They, like we, want to destroy what they aim at and wish not to destroy what they don’t.

            The principals of PDA, Carl Conetta and Charles Knight, continue their decades-long effort to get the United States to disarm. It’s still a free country, and they should write what they wish.

            But I am not sure you mean to subscribe to their fundamental philosophy in the world we have.

        3. That quote disparages both humans and animals —– they are terrorists!

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            So are the Israelis. That does not excuse either of them.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The Israelis’ are a lot of things including heavy handed, but they aren’t the ones beheading babies.

            Hamas, who was voted into power are terrorists. You cannot negotiate with them, as it has come out that the Israeli Government operated under backdoor peace deals (which Hamas violated).

            This is nothing more than an Iranian backed plan to get Saudi Arabia to pull back from normalizing relations with Israel.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar

            and to distract attention from Netanyahoo’s jailing for corruption.

            The Egyptians warned the Israelis that this was coming, as if the Israeli security services didn’t know it themselves.

            The horror is that this is likely happening for ulterior motives and is downstream from 3/4 of a century of Israeli abuse of Palestinians that has been aided and abetted by us.

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “and to distract attention from Netanyahoo’s jailing for corruption.

            The Egyptians warned the Israelis that this was coming, as if the Israeli security services didn’t know it themselves.

            The horror is that this is likely happening for ulterior motives and is downstream from 3/4 of a century of Israeli abuse of Palestinians that has been aided and abetted by us.”

            What you’ve stated is conjecture. I don’t personally give a rip about Netanyahoo, he’s irrelevant. What is relevant is the slaughter of innocent women and children under the guise of peace. Simply saying Hamas is planning something big isn’t intelligence, it’s a guess.

            https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

            Full stop, Palestinians are responsible for their own plight. They’ve refused to entertain any notion of a two state solution and in 2006 elected Terrorist’s, whom have suspended elections since that time. Now their former leaders are living comfortably in Qatar telling the rest of the Arab world to join the jihad.

            Hamas hides behinds women and children and cry to the media when they are responded too.

          5. Lefty665 Avatar

            You can pick any starting point you please to draw the conclusion you want.

            The Jewish terror against Palestinians goes back to post WWII, and the Palestinians have reciprocated, asymmetrically due to the power imbalance.

            It is long past time for us to stop feeding both the monsters.

            Neither you nor I know what detail the Egyptians provided the Israelis. What we do know is that the public statement was very general, and that is what we would expect.

            There is also no knowing what the Israeli intelligence services knew, but we can bet it was a lot. Hamas’s op sec on an operation that size cannot have been great. ISR being what it is today, it is unlikely it went unnoticed.

            The question is why it went unchallenged. That trail leads us back to Netanyahoo.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “The Jewish terror against Palestinians goes back to post WWII, and the Palestinians have reciprocated, asymmetrically due to the power imbalance.”

            Members of the Arab League marched Kfar Etzion and massacred 127, including 15 that were surrendering.

            “Neither you nor I know what detail the Egyptians provided the Israelis. What we do know is that the public statement was very general, and that is what we would expect.”

            You’re right we don’t, just like the Press Briefing that UBL was determined to attack. It means nothing, it’s a statement made to lay blame in a convoluted manner, instead of taking things at face value.

            “Hamas’s op sec on an operation that size cannot have been great. ISR being what it is today, it is unlikely it went unnoticed.”

            This operation was likely planned and trained for in Iran, we aren’t flying ISR over Iran.

            That’s not following Occam’s razor.

          7. Lefty665 Avatar

            “we aren’t flying ISR over Iran.”

            Really? So thoughty that we turn the satellites off when they are over Iran, and that NSA rejects all Iranian URLs, and, and and… You’re a bright guy, you know better.

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            You do realize we had an ISR shotdown over Iran in 2019, right?

            Just because the NSA has the ability to do something, doesn’t mean they could catch or stop it. Case in point, dudes in PJ’s defeated our military.

            Also, most of not all of our intelligence on Iran comes by way of Israel.

          9. Lefty665 Avatar

            We were stupid enough to fly it over Iranian airspace, what did you expect them to do watch it like it was a Chinese weather balloon while it overflew them? Satellites were what I was specifically referring to. Surveillance from outside territorial boundaries counts too, google NATO ISR conducted from countries around Ukraine to illustrate the capabilities.

            We spend an awful lot of money on our national technical means to discard it all for what scraps the Israelis deign to throw us. If you have evidence that most all our intelligence on Iran comes from Israel please present it, otherwise please accept a big belly laugh for the funny tall tale.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “We were stupid enough to fly it over Iranian airspace, what did you expect”

            Well the drone was in International Air Space, not Iranian Air Space (unless you believe them).

            It was also not the first time.

            Satellites have a specific orbit, they aren’t drones that loiter. If you don’t believe that the Iranian’s know when that drone passes overhead, you’ve got another thing coming. The Iranian’s also have their very own Spy Satellite currently floating overhead thanks to the Russians.

            “NATO ISR” that doesn’t change the fact that Israel is a major non-NATO ally and supplying intel. SIGNIT only gets you so far, you need HUMINT. Since the US has not had an embassy on the ground in Iran since 1979, the Agency would have a pretty hard time collecting that HUMINT.

            Beyond what is published open source, if I knew and divulged, it would be a crime.

            https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-officials-said-pleased-with-talks-with-us-on-iran-nuclear-program/

          11. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Saw that today… should take this report with a grain of salt as there is a lot of disinformation out there but if true, not good…

    3. In your opinion what would be a “proportionate” response to a cowardly terrorist attack which, on a population-adjusted basis killed more than 10 times as many people as the 9/11 attacks?

      What do you think our response would/should be if we suffered a terrorist attack inside the United States which killed more than 35,000 people?

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        There are two possibilities for a weak enemy committing an atrocity. The first is obvious, shock. The second is to draw the stronger defender into an grossly unequal response. Netanyahooty has threatened a huge response. Israel has “more to lose” if they’re seen to “flatten Gaza” killing civilians.

        Our reaction to 911 would have been just about appropriate for a 35,000 casualty assault. Ours was a disproportionate response to 911, and we paid the price. We had plenty of evidence that Al Qaeda was responsible. We knew they were in Afghanistan. We went in and cleaned house. Great. Within a couple of months we had all but decapitated Al Qaeda and some of the Taliban. We’re done. Then, we stayed and invaded Iraq to boot. We killed way more innocent civilians in two countries than necessary. The Mideast is still destabilized. Oops.

        When Bush raised the “Mission (Misunder)Accomplished” banner. It was time to split.

        1. When Bush raised the “Mission (Misunder) Accomplished” banner. It was time to split.

          I agree with that.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Well, be careful when hunting monsters, eh?

        2. Lefty665 Avatar

          Think what a different world it would be today if we had decapitated bin Laden and Al Qaeda when we had them cornered at Tora Bora in December 2001, declared victory and come home to international accolades.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Think what a different world it would be today if we had decapitated bin Laden and Al Qaeda when we had them cornered at Tora Bora in December 2001, declared victory and come home to international accolades.”

            Think if life would’ve been different if Clinton had UBL had been taken off the board in the 1990’s.

            There were a plethora of chances to remove UBL, none of the them were taken.

          2. Lefty665 Avatar

            There were, but only one of them led to 2 decades of neo con wars of aggression.

            That was Duhbya’s decision to let bin Laden et al go and pull our forces out of Afghanistan in preparation for invading Iraq. It has been all downhill from there.

            The world would truly be a much different, and likely much better, place had the neo cons not leveraged 911 to launch into their wet dreams of world dominance and the NEW AMERICAN CENTURY.

            The horrifying and inexplicable part is that we are still letting them drive. US policy.

          3. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “There were, but only one of them led to 2 decades of neo con wars of aggression.”

            The MIC doesn’t care what party you belong to, it’s fed by both NeoCons and NeoLibs.

            Tora Bora was Tommy Franks decision, it was a bad one, but not at the feet of Bush.

            https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-14190032

            “The world would truly be a much different, and likely much better, place had we not launched into the neo con wet dreams of world dominance and the AMERICAN CENTURY.”

            Again, the Military Industrial Complex doesn’t care what party or philosophy you ascribe.

  6. DJRippert Avatar

    It seems to me that the carrier task force is more of a warning to Iran than a platform to attack Hamas. The Israeli’s will easily handle Hamas.

    Hopefully, Sleepy Joe is paying attention. He seems consumed with stoking inflation and raising the debt by trying to find some way to buy votes through “forgiving” student loans. How that is not the equivalent of a “tax cut for the rich” is beyond me.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I’m thinking “sleepy joe” is not the kind of guy
      to have the US start a regional war by doing what some are advocating… thankfully

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Nothing in a war in an urban environment is easy.

Leave a Reply