Riding to Richmond

by James A. Bacon

In Northern Virginia, a common battle cry around the turn of the century was, “Don’t Fairfax Loudoun.” After much of Loudoun became Fairfaxed, the admonition moved on to, “Don’t Fairfax Fauquier.”

Soon it will be “Don’t Fairfax Richmond.”

Fairfax County’s dysfunctional pattern of land use — low density subdivisions of detached single-family dwellings, separated land uses, hopscotch development — was cemented in place by zoning codes and the high cost of redeveloping property into higher-density development. Traffic congestion and supply-demand imbalance for housing are baked into the cake. The resulting quality of life may be acceptable to the immigrants who replenish the population outflow, but the middle class wants out.

According to the leading expert in Virginia demographics, thousands of Northern Virginians are moving to Richmond. (Listen to our cool AI-generated song, “Riding to Richmond,” by clicking on the audio link above.)

The main reason more people are leaving Virginia than are moving in — and moving from Northern Virginia to Richmond — is the high cost of housing, said Hamilton Lombard, manager of the Demographics Research Group at the University of Virginia’s Weldon Cooper Center on Tuesday at an online seminar organized by Virginia FREE.

 

After decades in the shadow of Northern Virginia, the Richmond metropolitan area has quietly become the population and economic growth leader of Virginia in recent years. The cause is less than evident. It’s not as if Richmond has experienced an obvious efflorescence of innovation and business formation that is creating new jobs.

Richmond’s biggest virtue may be that it’s not Northern Virginia, but it’s near Northern Virginia — only a two-hour drive on Interstate 95 (depending upon traffic conditions).

The Richmond Times-Dispatch summarizes Lombard’s remarks:

Lombard … confirmed the perception that the escalating cost of housing in the Richmond area arises in part from a big surge in migration from Northern Virginia in the past three years. This came after the COVID-19 pandemic made the Washington, D.C., area one of the largest centers of remote work in the country.

“The Richmond area is growing as much as it ever has in its history,” he said, “and that’s in large part because of remote workers coming in.”

Lombard backs up the statement with data from the first three years of this decade that show a net in-migration of more than 36,400 people to the Richmond metropolitan area, almost 10,000 more than a comparable period at the beginning of this century.

Many of them come from Fairfax County, the most populous locality in Virginia — with a net average increase of about 300 people arriving from Fairfax each year in Chesterfield County over the past three years and about 200 a year each in Richmond and Henrico County.

Housing prices are lower, traffic is far less congested, and Richmond has many of the urban/suburban amenities that many people are looking for. Northern Virginia expats can enjoy an easier, less-expensive lifestyle in the Richmond region but connect to Northern Virginia employers remotely and zip up I-95 (when it’s not a parking lot) a few times a month for in-person meetings, as needed.

I suspect that a closer examination also would show that an increasing number of Northern Virginia businesses are switching ancillary and back-office operations to the Richmond area. Again, there’s the combination of lower cost, livability and relatively close proximity.

Assuming this analysis is valid, a number of observations and questions arise.

While the City of Richmond is doing a good job of promoting higher-density, mixed-use infill (one of the few things the city does well), it can’t come close to accommodating the population growth of the entire region. Outside of Richmond, development has been characterized by the same kind of suburban sprawl that ruined Fairfax County. The population centers of Henrico and Chesterfield counties have been slow to change course. Will the Richmond area Fairfax itself?

Another interesting question is how the influx of Northern refugees will alter the politics of the Richmond region. Most Northern Virginians arrived from elsewhere, mainly Blue states in the Northeast. In turn, Fairfax County is solid Blue. Will Northern Virginia emigres, having fled the Northeast, turn Henrico and Chesterfield Blue as well? They may have done so already in Henrico.


ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)




Comments


Comments

88 responses to “Riding to Richmond”

  1. Right on target. I've listened as my young-professional children and friends have precisely this discussion: move to Richmond and work remotely from there except as needed, enjoy a better quality of life. That said, they all want to move to an area like the Fan or Museum District / Carytown out to Westhampton and beyond to Bon Air and River Road, and there just isn't that much available real estate — prices are going to rise in those favored areas (although still a bargain compared with Northern Virginia prices).

    Yes the politics will change. It's inevitable that education and demographic shifts would have that effect anyway but the influx from Northern Virginia will accelerate it. Impatience with the City's government and schools is bound to be the first manifestation. Many of these same young people have looked at the alternative, Baltimore, and been dismayed by the conditions there. They will come to Richmond armed for change, along the lines of Jon Baliles' constant reminders of what is, and isn't, working in the City.

    Bring it on!

    1. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      Seems some of the prices have already been on the move. West end stuff not far from UR, just outside the city limits, post war to mid '50s development are going $600-$750k and some are tear downs. It's surprising.

      I expect some of the folks will be surprised at the dysfunction of Richmond city government. That can take the bloom off living in the fan or other in town neighborhoods. Long ago I was happy to get out of the fan and away from the city morass. I have never looked back, although moving back to NoVa has never been an option. There is civilization beyond the beltway.

      1. Marty Chapman Avatar
        Marty Chapman

        I tell my nieces and nephews Arlington is a great place to be 25 and single and you do not have to be lucky or even particularly smart to make $$ on real estate there.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar

          I didn't even like Arlington long ago when I was growing up in NoVa. Not lucky or smart, but you gotta have significant cash to play the game. Early post war little Monopoly set houses going for over a million bucks is bizarre.

  2. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    Good to see Jim Bacon getting his hands on AI!

    Of course Loudoun got "Fairfaxed". Of course Fauquier will get "Loudouned". Henrico is already a sprawl zone and Chesterfield will be next.

    I have been all over the United States – where does fast population growth lead to anything but sprawl? Silicon Valley? Try driving from San Jose to San Francisco on Rt 101. Atlanta? Sprawl. Dallas? They are converting farmland to tract housing far from the city center as fast as humanly possible. Visit Frisco for an example.

    People want to live in their own homes with yards and they're willing to pay and drive through congestion to do so.

    As for Richmonders working remotely for DC area companies – enjoy it while it lasts. Companies are catching on quickly and paying market rates for where the employee lives, not where the company's office building is located. And while Richmond is cheaper than DC, it's not anywhere near the cheapest US city. Not even in the cheapest 25 (see link below). Why hire an employee and pay Richmond wages when you can hire one for less in Oklahoma City – which even has a pro sports team! And please don't tell me that it's because companies are demanding workers spend 2 days / week in the office and they'll drive from Richmond to Reston for those two days. That 'hybrid work" approach is a fad. With the advent of cheap, high quality video-conferencing, companies will kill off the hybrid worker. You'll either be full time in the office or full time remote.

    https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/places-to-live/601488/25-cheapest-us-cities-to-live-in

  3. LesGabriel Avatar
    LesGabriel

    Regarding the possible political ramifications of this migration, all of the comments have focused on changing political fortunes in the receiving area, but none on the Fairfax end. There is undoubtedly an outflow of lots of Blue voters but what do we know of the political affiliation of those moving into Fairfax?

    1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
      f/k/a_tmtfairfax

      A large number of them are not citizens eligible to vote.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        seen this TMT:
        " Given that the undocumented population included 10.9 million people in 2022, this $96.7 billion tax payment is equivalent to $8,889 per person. In other words, this analysis finds that for every 1 million undocumented immigrants who reside in the country, public services receive $8.9 billion in additional tax revenue."

        https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/#:~:text=Given%20that%20the%20undocumented%20population,billion%20in%20additional%20tax%20revenue.
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/22e47223e072a51b676b8d36f2f2340366529e08711a0eeda3c5877c0750d748.png

        1. Chip Gibson Avatar
          Chip Gibson

          Load'em up and ship'em out.

        2. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
          f/k/a_tmtfairfax

          Larry, this data is not correct. Over the years, I've heard quite a few elected officials from Fairfax County, both parties, and senior management say that residential taxpayers don't pay sufficient local taxes to cover the costs for the services that they consume. Of course, some individuals do, but most don't. We paid a lot of taxes in McLean over the years, but when we had both kids in public schools there were likely years when we didn't.

          Elected officials and senior management would also say that, generally, people with lower incomes (likely because they have lesser educations and skills) tend to consume even more services.

          This study, along with most others I've seen, doesn't make the direct comparison of local taxes paid to local services consumed. Why? Because these studies are dishonest attempts to justify illegal immigration.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            How do the undocumented manage to evade paying taxes? Seems like they certainly pay sales taxes and property and car taxes, right? And they don’t get “services” beyond schools for their kids. How is an undocumented any different from other citizens for local taxes?

            I thought this interesting:

            How do Undocumented Immigrants Pay Federal Taxes? An Explainer

            https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/#:~:text=The%20short%20answer%20is%20yes,was%20earned%20by%20working%20illegally.

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Many of them work under the table.

            'course I know someone who does that AND collects disability. He's a from-here, in case you're wondering.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            He’s undocumented and collectss disability?

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            His employment is undocumented; his American (Virginian from-here) birth is very well documented.

          5. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            His employment is undocumented; his American (Virginian from-here) birth is very well documented.

          6. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            His employment is undocumented; his American (Virginian from-here) birth is very well documented.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            SSDI is based on what you paid into social security. SSI is not but is much more limited . The former, undocumented cannot get at all. The later, they might under some circumstances. from what I know which
            may not be totally all.

          8. "work under the table."

            But when they buy groceries, gas, clothing, service their cars, pay for utilities — it's all over the table and subject to taxes.

          9. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Very few of those are subject to any FEDERAL taxes. They don’t make up for the lack of income tax.

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Few at many income levels would actually owe Federal taxes anyhow, right?

          11. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Define “owe”.

            If you mean “owe” as in you “owe” the IRS because you didn’t have enough withholding–that is not a common situation, as far as I know.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Well.. they won’t have any withheld and they won’t file… right?

          13. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Where are you going with this? Are you suggesting that if they did have withholding and did file, that their refund would be the same as what was withheld?

          14. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            at certain low income levels, yes. They can actually get a credit for low income also.
            https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-does-federal-tax-system-affect-low-income-households

          15. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            and car taxes and property taxes… AND some pay FICA and never get it back.

          16. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            Only an idiot or a fraudster would use a revenue study to justify illegal immigration or someone paid by those businesses that rely on illegal immigration or those who want to expand jobs for the professional caring class. The standard has always been a cost-benefit study.

            Since many local governments don't check immigration status, do they really turn people away from health care, food assistance, housing and other services? How about subsidized broadband and cellphone service (lifeline). https://annandaletoday.com/the-trust-policy-benefits-immigrants/

            How much more does it take to educate a child who not only doesn't read and write in English but who may be largely illiterate in his or her home language?

            The demand for more and more social services is pushing up real estate taxes. More and more free lunch kids.

            Who is likely to need more services? The engineer immigrating legally from Ghana or the day worker immigrating illegally from Honduras?

          17. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Agreed. But it's the illegal employers of them that pays them much lower wages that is the primary beneficiary of the tax subsidies for services, right?
            They actually ARE paying for local services no different than other citizens who are low income and pay less in taxes than they get in services.

            In fact, when it comes to schools , they are heavily subsidized by taxpayers who don't have kids in the schools. If a kid , one kid , costs 10K to educate, tell me how many folks pay 5K in taxes for schools (or 10K in taxes for schools and the other services)?

            I'm betting more than 1/2 the regular citizen population comes nowhere close to paying the full cost of educating their kids with their taxes,

  4. WayneS Avatar

    I'm glad you did not mention Goochland County as a destination for Fairfax emigres – that might cause more of them to settle there….

    Darn it! Now I've gone and mentioned it. Forget I said anything…

  5. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    I don't think that the Hillbilly's are moving to Richmond from Fairfax, the blue is moving, for sure, but they are pretty much upper middle to middle class. An entire different flavor, unfortunately, they may indeed increase the cost of housing and oust the middle and lower middle class from these same communities. Petersburg has seen an increase in housing prices and sales, certainly not in the $750 thousand plus bracket, but in affordable housing for first time home owners. So this is a good thing for Petersburg too.

    1. WayneS Avatar

      Yes. There aren't too many Fairfax hillbillies and rednecks around these days. Prince William? Different story…

      1. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        Many of the Prince William hillbillies originally came from Fairfax.

        Manassas Park is an interesting case–not many of the original hillbillies or their descendants still live there. I suppose they've moved out to Winchester, Warrenton, Fredericksburg, Culpeper…

  6. Walter Hadlock Avatar
    Walter Hadlock

    The humor here is calling Fairfax to not be Loudoun County (Prince William too?) when it comes to the never ending proliferation of data centers. Fairfax County officials are trying to walk a tight rope in setting new rules for data centers. Many have attended board of supervisor meetings, etc. saying NO to data centers. Yes, there are supporters. Fairfax County was just embarrassed by having to reschedule data center hearings because a staff member (one can only wonder why the supervisor did not catch the mistake) did not follow the new rule for advertising public hearings. I expect other parts of the commonwealth will see more and more interest in building data centers. The unintended consequence of this article will be more and more people deciding to check out the Richmond area.

    1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
      f/k/a_tmtfairfax

      My good friends from Fairfax County have told me that the county supervisors have realized that they can only increase real estate taxes on residential properties so much. But in order to keep the spending train rolling, especially to provide services to the large illegal immigrant population, in light of the significant decline in office and other commercial and industrial property tax revenues, they need new sources of money. They got the GA to authorize a meals tax without a referendum because voters rejected it. Senator Marsden is pushing his casino bill, hotly opposed by many residents. And the supervisors are making a big play for bringing data centers to Fairfax County.

  7. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    It is nice to have the numbers, but Hamilton Lombard did not tell us anything that is not obvious to anyone who had been paying attention the last few years. There are apartments and condos and townhouses going up everywhere. There are some traditional single-family subdivisions, to be sure, but most seems to be much denser housing. For example, behind the credit union branch I use, in a vacant space in the midst of a an are occupied by a former shopping mall and other commercial buildings, several multi-story residential facilities are going up.

    1. Thomas Carter Avatar
      Thomas Carter

      Those multi-story residential facilities will generate a torrent of people looking to move to single-family housing when the effects of living in their neighbors' laps take hold.

      1. Thomas Carter Avatar
        Thomas Carter

        P.S. – I wonder if the come-heres will appreciate the sorry state of Richmond's management (city and school system) as much as native Richmonders do once they get settled.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Well, you wouldn't move to Richmond proper then, but to Chesterfield or Goochland, etc…

        2. Chip Gibson Avatar
          Chip Gibson

          Will be a sad reckoning. So many years of being proud of Richmond. Those years are now long gone.

          1. Thomas Carter Avatar
            Thomas Carter

            Even though the makeup of city council and the hiring decisions they might make aren't anything to write home about, we would be better served by a return to a city manager and not a "popularly" elected strong (and too often inept) mayor.

  8. Super Brain Avatar
    Super Brain

    Chesterfield is the locality that is booming.

  9. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Yeah…but… People don't leave a job in NoVa for a job in Richmond unless there is an equivalent job in Richmond, right?

    There are LOTs of jobs in NoVa courtesy of Uncle Sam and all the contractor
    and spin-off jobs associated with.

    What is the economy of Richmond in terms of jobs available?

    Fredericksburg did not have this problem because we are close enough to
    commute… but things have changed since covid. We still have the "commuters" but look at the commuter lots now:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8cd8364da9666c622cddb26b33241615cc1ffdff6ab2937240fe30513e8ce2ab.png

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      Perhaps they've moving to Richmond to find a job that ISN'T a Federal contract position.

      By and large, Federal contracting stinks. The gigs are from a couple months to a couple of years, and then you have to find a new one before the clock runs out and you get fired for not being billable.

      In some cases, a gig doesn't even last as long as it's supposed to because the funding is cut or because the customer changes the staffing requirements.

      If you've never been a Federal contractor, you have no idea how it is.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Could be , just not sure what kinds of jobs are availabe in Richmond. Some commenters here think it's NoVa workers living remote in Richmond. I dunno but I do know people don't move to some place because they "like" it if there are no jobs there for them.

        You want "nice" , with little to no congestion, low house prices, etc? Go to rural Iowa or Nebraska. A ton of "nice" places but not even RETIRED NoVa folks want to be out there!

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          That's because RETIRED NoVa folks have to keep up appearances, and retiring to "flyover country" isn't part of that.

          One of the things about NoVa folks in general is that many of them are quite pretentious. Can't shut up about who their daddy is, how much money they make (or used to make if they're a homeless druggie), etc. ad nauseum.

          I'd happily move out of here just to get away from THAT.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Yes, the other day I saw a BMW with a "Once a Marine, always a Marine" license plate weaving through traffic on Linton Hall Rd.

            Just to get stopped at the same traffic lights I did.

            BMW? Check.
            License plate frame telling you what he is? Check.
            Northern Virginia driver? Check.
            Driving like a jerk? Check.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Marines apparently love Fredericksburg also.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Marines apparently love Fredericksburg also.

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            John Bobbitt was a Marine.

          5. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            Failed bayonet training.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            but had a gender procedure?

          7. Chip Gibson Avatar
            Chip Gibson

            This one does. Never had the opportunity to live there, though.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Quantico has always been "close" to Fredericksburg both for Marines and civilian workers, FBI, etc and that was BEFORE I-95 was built and folks commuted on Route 1.

    2. I think, Larry, these are mostly people who have jobs in NoVa they can keep after moving to Richmond. They will work remotely for DC employers, as JB correctly described. They aren't looking for new jobs at all. Yet if they have to go to a face-to-face meeting at their employer's they can still get there in 2 hours. May cost them the price of the Express Lanes but that's a good compromise.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        and once VRE/AMTRAK build that 3rd track… from DC to Richmond, we’re gonna be more and more like the North East in terms of train commutes? One thing I don’t get is that some of the govt jobs require classified clearances so I assume they’re NOT doing “remote” work.

        1. You would think so. But the extensive use of 'secure' encrypted VPNs today seems to have overcome that restriction. Remains to be seen if they are as secure as claimed, but plenty of classified work gets done over them currently.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Apparently so but the problem has always been the hard drive on the computer. If it has classified data on it, it has to be secured in a SCIF or secured area (or so I thought).

    3. Maybe they've started driving themselves to work to avoid being exposed to covid…

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        maybe some did but most did not especially after their agencies said they could work from home. Many of our commuter lots are still 2/3 empty these days. VRE is still less than half what they were before Covid AND heard a presentation recently where they say they don’t expect to get back to where they were. They’re talking about other kinds of train service besides pure commuter.

  10. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    Good to see Jim Bacon getting his hands on AI!

    Of course Loudoun got "Fairfaxed". Of course Fauquier will get "Loudouned". Henrico is already a sprawl zone and Chesterfield will be next.

    I have been all over the United States – where does fast population growth lead to anything but sprawl? Silicon Valley? Try driving from San Jose to San Francisco on Rt 101. Atlanta? Sprawl. Dallas? They are converting farmland to tract housing far from the city center as fast as humanly possible. Visit Frisco for an example.

    People want to live in their own homes with yards and they're willing to pay and drive through congestion to do so.

    As for Richmonders working remotely for DC area companies – enjoy it while it lasts. Companies are catching on quickly and paying market rates for where the employee lives, not where the company's office building is located. And while Richmond is cheaper than DC, it's not anywhere near the cheapest US city. Not even in the cheapest 25 (see link below). Why hire an employee and pay Richmond wages when you can hire one for less in Oklahoma City – which even has a pro sports team! And please don't tell me that it's because companies are demanding workers spend 2 days / week in the office and they'll drive from Richmond to Reston for those two days. That 'hybrid work" approach is a fad. With the advent of cheap, high quality video-conferencing, companies will kill off the hybrid worker. You'll either be full time in the office or full time remote.

    https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/places-to-live/601488/25-cheapest-us-cities-to-live-in

  11. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    Uncle Sam is still trying to get people back in the office. Lower car tax at least, I would add that to song. By way Dominion will have to add a new wind turbine just to generate enough electrons to produce the AI song. I recall someone here predicted the cloud was going go away from NoVA due to 5G …oh well.

  12. Chip Gibson Avatar
    Chip Gibson

    Too late for Richmond. It has self-consumed and self-destructed. A slow, simmering burn until the crust collapses into the void.

    1. Your imagery makes me think of a Dali painting. Surreal, on multiple levels.

    2. Your imagery makes me think of a Dali painting. Surreal, on multiple levels.

      1. Chip Gibson Avatar
        Chip Gibson

        I simply try to remember Richmond as it once was, in all its rich culture, glory, and finery.

  13. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    The thing about high housing prices (and taxes) in NoVa is something called "demand". Demand for houses remains high, despite high prices which keeps the prices high and even going higher.

    This is really not a new revelation and folks living in Fredericksburg, Stafford and Spotsylvania have seen this for years, indeed decades. Caroline County, south of them is now seeing NoVa folks looking for cheaper housing. THe congestion-priced express lanes are also proof of this.

    And the big building boom in the Fredericksburg Area, now includes apartments – near the VRE stations.

    And here's another perverse aspect. People that already live and work in the Fredericksburg Area, teachers, police, fire, etc – they leave their local jobs and take jobs in NoVa for the money, so Fredericksburg and surrounding counties have become de-facto "training" sites where folks
    take the local job, get trained up then leave for more money up north – adding to the commute!

    So, what is the proper role of govt in this issue which seems to be primarily a free-market, supply/demand issue for housing?

    Is it the job of government to work to make sure that housing is "affordable", not for the homeless or low income but middle income folks?

  14. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    One of the things one hears about NoVa is that there are not enough roads.

    I know. I know. Anyone who has driven there knows the place already seems largely paved over but some who live there still say that. To me NoVa folks seem to like driving a lot.. beyond just to /from work.. they just like to drive!

    I've always perceived Richmond Area roads to be much less congested and terrifying than NoVa roads but I do wonder if it actually has more roads or is it truly less people?

    If more and more NoVa people move to Richmond, will they do to Richmond roads what they've done to NoVa roads or is that basically a scurrilous lie? ๐Ÿ˜‰

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      The problem in NoVA is that most of the roads don't connect to other roads. If you took a map of NoVA and removed the roads that don't connect to other roads…a lot of lines would disappear.

      Where I used to live in Manassas, to get back to the main intersection near my house only making right turns is something like a 10 or 15 mile trip.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        looks like they all connect at some point. Can you show one that does not in the way you’re talking about?

        1. Lack of connection to Dulles from the south is the most notable one I know. 234 was built to provide that, but ends at I-66 without the long-planned but bitterly-opposed extension NE through the Stone Ridge / South Riding area. Building this one connection would do wonders to alleviate the truck congestion on I-95 in NoVa.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            On mainline and/or limited access roads , a connecting road will need either a traffic signal or an interchange.
            THe traffic signal will adversely affect the traffic flow on the mainline and an interchange will eat a lot of land
            which is often and usually businesses double, triple, quadruple costs.

            Here’s a pretty good list of recently completed and scheduled improvements in NoVa (a pile of money!)

            https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/northern-virginia-district/

        2. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          Think “dead end” or the more politically correct “no outlet” roads.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            If they are residential , well no.. won’t happen unless the homes are condemned. But I’m a skeptic
            that NoVa has more of these than other places like Richmond. Any reason why NoVa would have grown
            that way differently? It don’t help to build them anyhow usually. It CAN actually encourages MORE driving. It incentives more driving! There’s a name for it, it’s called induced trips. There IS such a thing a a true connecting road but it generally does not increase traffic – it diverts/shifts some existing traffic. They can model it.

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            The only thing that has been proven without a doubt to increase driving is development.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Can’t disagree with that but we’re being told people are fleeing Nova ! ๐Ÿ˜‰ more leaving than coming,
            right? and you STILL need MORE roads! We have strong advocacy for more roads down here and they
            don’t care if they go right through other folks neighborhoods other than their own! We’re somewhat
            alike on errand. I line them up so there is only one left turn – the return to home everthing else is
            a right turn in and a right turn out in part because VDOT has had to close most median cross-overs
            and extend the left-turns at lights for u-turns. That’s because the id*ots can’t help themselves in
            using medians crossovers. So most all medians are now closed. I’m sure that happened long-ago up
            there.

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            VDOT hasn’t closed the medians on 234. Though maybe one of them reads this and thinks it’s a good idea.

            The way they do it in Maryland on US15 north of Frederick is pretty interesting and seems to work well. The only way to cross the median is to make a U-turn.

            On a somewhat related subject, VDOT has managed to screw up the traffic signal timing on that new diverging diamond interchange on Balls Ford Rd/234. Now you get stopped at BOTH traffic lights when passing through on Balls Ford Rd.

            One of the disadvantages of that type of interchange–they need traffic lights. One of the disadvantages of traffic lights–they need skilled technical people to get them to work right.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            U-turns are not good with high-speed traffic… either. I agree about the timing – it’s actually an computer issue!

            People down this way diss the diverging diamonds and roundabouts. They basically want to go FAST and
            not get slowed down so of course I’m totally on board with the new improvements that slow folks down. We have too many dang people going way to fast – for conditions. Use to be, most folks would drive according to conditions, not only weather, but sight distance on curvy/hilly roads and traffic and now they just flat
            overrun and run into other people because they are going to fast to stop. I’m all for speed and red-light
            cameras now and I’m getting company. Some folks just have to have rules. Otherwise they run slap over
            everyone else.

          6. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            U-turns work in Maryland on US15. Quite well. Is it possible that Maryland drivers can handle them but Virginia drivers cannot?

            Of course, US15 in Maryland tends to be a better highway than it is in Virginia.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            NC has a turn-out across from the median – so you can come across then wait then come out. No, I think
            ANY pure U-turn on a busy road is risky business. Seen way too many close calls.

          8. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            They have deceleration/acceleration lanes for u-turn traffic.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I’m not sure we have any of them. You’ve got an accel lane on the left (after the “U”) for merging back to the mainline? Down here, they lengthen the left turn lanes and then let you do a “U” at the light. Can you point to one?

          10. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Yes, and yes.

            Google maps, go look at any intersection on US15 in MD north of Frederick. Lots between there and the PA state line.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            First look, I don’t see any median crossovers with deccel/accel on Md 15. They allow the “U”s at the signals that have essentially dedicated deccel/accel – but at the signals and even some of the signals don’t allow the “U”. This is consistent with what VDOT is doing. They’re closing many of the median crossovers and not allowing “U”s at all signals , just some. Their designs are based on reducing the total number of conflict points.

            The more conflict points, the more accidents, the less, the fewer. They have to do this.
            Some folks are just out of control, If you let them, people will do all kinds of stupid stuff and
            cause accidents. That’s what is behind closing the median crossovers, the diverging diamonds, the
            roundabouts , closing some cloverleafs and converted to signalized diamonds, etc.

            They are no longer prioritizing reduced travel time and delay. It’s conflict points and fewer accidents and fewer deadly accidents.

          12. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Yes, the design on US15 only allows U-turns, so to make a left or right turn you make a right, accelerate in the accel lane, change lanes to the next U-turn decel lane, make your U-turn and then accelerate and then change lanes to make your exit on the right…

            You know, I just figured out why VDOT doesn’t do this. It’s too confusing for both them and the average Virginia driver.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            No way! How many lanes are you changing and then merging in front of oncoming traffic and changing lanes again?

            Here's one I see. I see the deccel lane to the crossover but I do not see an accel lane.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a224bc3fba164f78a989f76cbbd7cf7071fc4bf76dcde2061526f6a90c407da3.png

            Are you perhaps talking about something like this (that VDOT is doing):

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/06cdc178bec8b8931291843092dedfc447b7379fac2ae4c931779f37e7401d6b.png

          14. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            No way! How many lanes are you changing and then merging in front of oncoming traffic and changing lanes again?

            Here's one I see. I see the deccel lane to the crossover but I do not see an accel lane.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a224bc3fba164f78a989f76cbbd7cf7071fc4bf76dcde2061526f6a90c407da3.png

            Are you perhaps talking about something like this (that VDOT is doing):

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/06cdc178bec8b8931291843092dedfc447b7379fac2ae4c931779f37e7401d6b.png

          15. Marty Chapman Avatar
            Marty Chapman

            I-66 cut through N. Arlington and created several odd traffic patterns

  15. Site work and deq regs are up 10 fold .lumber and bldg matls are a commodity.

Leave a Reply


ADVERTISEMENT