Bring Out Your Dead

There’s a scene from “Monty Python and the Holy Grail,” in which Eric Idle plays a corpse collector making the rounds of a plague-ridden village in the Dark Ages, crying “Bring out your dead, bring out your dead.” One peasant tries to pass off an old fellow as dead. The old guy moves, saying “I’m not dead.” “He says he’s not dead,” says Eric Idle. “Yes, he is,” says the peasant. “No, I’m not,” says the old guy. “Well, he will be soon,” says the peasant. “He’s very ill.”

That scene brings to mind the late lamented healthcare reform package. For the most part, all that remains to do is clear away the bodies. But it would be a big mistake if we hauled every single piece of the legislation off to the pauper’s grave.Some parts could make genuine, if limited, contributions to improving quality and addressing long-term costs.

I would hope that Title III of the Senate version of the bill, entitled “Improving the Quality and Efficiency of Health Care Act,” could be resurrected as a stand-alone bill. I believe it would gain bipartisan consensus and quickly win passage. Perhaps Sen. Mark Warner, who took a special interest in this aspect of reform, could lead the effort. Here is a section of a chapter from “Boomergeddon” that describes the benefits and limitations of Title III.

Bending the Cost Curve, Obama-Style

President Obama and his Congressional allies had two major preoccupations in approaching health care reform. First, they wanted to extend medical coverage to the 15% of the population that lacked it, a liberal Democratic priority since World War II. Second, they had a keen understanding that the nation could not long afford medical care if the cost continued to escalate some 2.5% a year faster than the general inflation rate over the next 40 years as it had for the past 40 years.

The tumultuous debate that ensued revolved mainly around the question of how to achieve universal insurance coverage, how to pay for it, and what impact the legislation would have on the federal budget. Different versions of the legislation were estimated to cost in the vicinity of $800 billion to $1 trillion over a 10-year period. Congress spent months identifying one group after another — the rich, the young and healthy, beneficiaries of high-cost health plans, consumers of soft drinks, cosmetic surgeons, tanning parlors — that could be shaken down for enough money to make the initiative “budget neutral.” But lawmakers faced a hard reality in this zero-sum game: For every winner (someone who gained access to medical insurance), there was a loser (someone else who paid for those benefits). And the losers raised hell.

The O Team cut deals with Big Pharma, Big Insura, Big Labor, the hospitals, doctors and even senators from Nebraska and Louisiana to buy their acquiescence. But in the end, it wasn’t enough. Health reform sputtered as Congress tried to reconcile the competing visions of the Senate and the House of Representatives. After the January election of Republican Scott Brown to the Massachusetts Senate seat previously occupied by Teddy Kennedy, the initiative collapsed. It was clear even to members of Congress: Far more Americans saw themselves as loser than winners from the legislation.

It’s a shame that the Obama administration tied the fate of the controversial universal-care provisions to the productivity-and-quality reform elements of the bill. Had those components been carved out in their own bill entitled, “Improving the Quality and Efficiency of Health Care Act” (as Title III of the Senate version the bill actually was slugged), it likely would have won bipartisan support and sailed to easy passage. The measures enumerated in Title III were not in themselves sufficient to “bend the curve,” as I shall explain, but they would have moved the U.S. health care system in the right direction and set the stage for the next round of market-oriented reforms.

Under the Obama plan, the commitment to efficiency and quality would start at the top. The Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) would develop a national strategy to measure results, identify best practices and goad hospitals, doctors and other providers into changing the way they practice medicine. In place of the current fee-for-service system, which reimburses providers on the basis of how many procedures they perform, regardless of the outcome, Medicare would reward them on the basis of how successfully treat the disease. Superior results would get more money; sub-par results would get less. Additionally, Medicare would pioneer the “bundling” of payments so that teams of medical specialists with different disciplines could be paid for delivering coordinated care over the course of a patient’s entire cycle of care, from prevention and diagnosis to treatment and recovery. These ideas are very similar to those propounded by Michael Porter and Elizabeth Teisberg, the business school professors whose analysis I have quoted admiringly [elsewhere].

In the same vein, the national health care strategy also would tackle the problems of costly medical errors, infections acquired in hospital settings, and the all-too-frequent problem of patients being readmitted to the hospital for the same medical episode. These are all areas where cutting costs and improving quality go hand in hand. Another important initiative would devise more effective ways to deliver care to patients with chronic conditions, which account for more than half of all medical spending. To carry out the Quality & Efficiency strategy, the president would convene a working group, the Interagency Working Group on Health Care Quality, to coordinate the activities of some 23 federal agencies and departments and work with the private sector.

Among the specifics identified in the bill, HHS would establish a “hospital value-based purchasing system.” Each hospital would be assigned a “hospital performance score” based upon its quality and performance metrics. Medicare payments would be raised or lowered in tandem with the score, rewarding excellence and punishing failure. Scores would be posted on a “Hospital Care” website, where it would be accessible to the public.

Likewise, the bill would create a physician quality reporting system. Physicians would be required to submit quality data to HHS, which would massage the data and then inform physicians how their “patterns of resource use” compared to that of other physicians. To avoid punishing docs who took on the hardest cases, the data would be adjusted for the severity of the patients’ conditions as well as demographic factors such as income and ethnicity.

A Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation would create cutting-edge payment and service-delivery models with the potential to improve the quality of care for patients at less cost. Such experiments would include sending doctor-nurse teams to elderly patients at home rather than waiting for them to arrive in the emergency room, medical homes focused on women’s unique health needs, and primary care physician groups that took lump-sum or salary-based payments in lieu of fee-for-service reimbursements. Another idea, Healthcare Innovation Zones centered around teaching hospitals, would deliver a “full spectrum of integrated and comprehensive health care services” while incorporating novel methods for training future health care professionals.

The legislation also would have endorsed an innovation called “accountable care organizations” (ACOs), which are comprised of a hospital, primary care physicians, specialists and other medical professionals. Accountable for the cost and quality of care for Medicare populations of 5,000 patients or more, ACOs would employ quality and cost measures along with new technologies such as remote patient monitoring to continually ratchet up the quality of care. As incentive, ACOs would be eligible to receive payment for shared savings.

These ideas represent the best thinking of the medical establishment. If enacted, Medicare would evolve over time from its fee-for-service system, which reimburses doctors and hospitals regardless of results, into a system that paid providers based on results over the full cycle of care. Data would be collected, massaged to identify best clinical practices, and spit back to the doctors, hospitals and other health professionals to guide them in improving their results and their public standing.

The Limits to Top-Down Reform

Title III would bring real improvements to the U.S. health care system. But let us be honest. It would not represent a dramatic breakthrough. Many of the ideas embodied in the legislation are being implemented by forward-thinking hospitals and physician practices already, even without the carrot/cattle prod of Medicare reimbursement reform. More significantly, Congress would entrust the Department of Health and Human Services to lead the charge. In other words, reform would be top-down and it would unfold at the same lethargic pace at which the federal government moves.

… After law firms, health care professionals pumped more money into the system than any other industry — $13.6 million. (That doesn’t even include the vast sums donated to the presidential campaign.) One of the advantages of being an established player like a multibillion-dollar health plan, a Fortune 500 pharmaceutical company or a billion-dollar health system is that you have lots of money to hire lobbyists and spread around PAC donations. Start-up entrepreneurs who might challenge your market dominance don’t have big bucks to throw around — they plow every penny they’ve got into growing their business. So, when it comes to translating the law into the fine print of rules and regulations, whom do you think will dominate the process? The big guys with offices in Washington, or the little guys trying to meet payroll on Friday? To ask the question is to answer it.

Here’s the challenge: It does not suffice to collect quality metrics for the nation’s hospitals and doctors, as necessary as that is to building a transparent, market-driven health care system. It is not enough to redesign Medicare’s payment system, although that, too, is an important step forward. Missing from Obama’s health care reform was any recognition of how change is driven by entrepreneurial innovation. As I shall explain in Chapter 11, the only hope we have of “bending the cost curve” fast enough to avoid Boomergeddon is to radically restructure the health care industry, rejecting the idea that hospitals must provide all services regardless of how well they do so, and jettisoning the notion that physicians should organize their practices around functional areas like oncology, nephrology, orthopedics and the like. The way to achieve dramatic gains in productivity and quality is by reorganizing health care providers around medical conditions in multi-disciplinary teams with dedicated facilities that provide focused treatment across the full cycle of care and use data to drive continual quality improvement.

Here are some of the barriers that block the adoption of entrepreneurial business models in U.S. health care:

The third-party payment system. With employers and insurers acting as intermediaries between patients and doctors, medical entrepreneurs have to gain the acceptance of bureaucratic insurers.

Lack of price transparency. The Obama plan would have made performance data available. That’s half the value equation. But it’s only half. There is no price transparency in U.S. health care. Without quality and price transparency, patients cannot make informed consumer decisions. Instead, they rely upon referrals, usually from other doctors. If those docs are tied into integrated health systems that feel threatened by the competition, they make not refer patients to interlopers.

Monolithic health care systems. The players with the most to lose from specialty hospitals are giant hospital systems, which provide a broad spectrum of health care services, usually excelling in only a few of them. As demonstrated repeatedly in the past, they will use their bargaining power with physicians and insurers to freeze competitors out of the market.

Certificate of public need. Hospital giants can block new competitors in this bureaucratic forum by making the case that there is no “public need” for “duplicative” and “redundant” hospital facilities. They also can argue that the interlopers will “skim the cream,” leaving the unprofitable patients for the hospitals. The argument doesn’t have to be true to be effective.

The Stark law. The law prohibits physicians from referring patients to a medical facility in which he/she has a financial interest. That could stymie physician/entrepreneurs from taking an equity position in a specialty hospital they set up.

Tort law. Indiscriminate lawsuits against physicians imposes many costs on the health care system, the least of which is the cost of paying for medical malpractice insurance. A larger cost, as is commonly observed, is the cost of defensive medicine, as doctors order extra tests, often unnecessary, to protect themselves in the event of a lawsuit. The biggest cost may be the chilling effect that fear of lawsuits has on the corporate culture of healthcare organizations. What doctor or hospital would want to systematically collect data on misdiagnoses and medical errors for quality-improvement purposes knowing that it could be used to crucify them in the court of law?

None of these issues were addressed by Obamacare.

The United States has pioneered awe-inspiring breakthroughs in genetics, cell chemistry, medical imaging, non-invasive surgical tools and related technologies. But innovation in business management and delivery models has slowed to a crawl. Labor productivity has stagnated. Despite the massive amount of information that exchanges hands in the course of medical care, implementation of information technology lags that of other industries. And quality control techniques remain in a state of barbaric simplicity compared to best practices like Six Sigma and Total Quality Management in the manufacturing sector.

The corporate culture of the health care industry desperately needs to change. An entrepreneurial revolution that builds new patient-centered and quality-focused businesses from the ground up is far more likely to succeed than diktats handed down by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.


ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)




Comments


Comments

90 responses to “Bring Out Your Dead”

  1. Anonymous Avatar

    Excellent post.

    What happens when you punsh a poorly performing hospital until it fails? Then you have no hospital, unless a bigger and better one buys it. We need more competition, but in this business you also cannot afford to have excess capacity.

    Conservatives have staked out the position that ANY reform is but the first step towards socialized medicine, and as a result they seem to be opposed to any step that looks like a first step.

    However, you are correct: it will be a shame if we get nothing out of it. For what this argument cost, we could have bought a lot of health care.

    We are faced with costs going up with or without this bill, and it is a question of which route gets us the most for our money.

    I don't beleive this is strictly a case of winners and losers, though. Today, some people have health care and they are ALREADY subsidizing those who do not. Under this plan, those who do not have health care would at least have had to pay SOMETHING to get it.

    The losers you talk about might actually be winners if only they lose a little less than under the do nothing plan.

    RH

  2. I'm of the opinion that we ought to walk away from this because I simply don't think enough people are ready to embrace anything they view as a zero-sum game and they are the designated losers.

    I'm not going to go into who stirred this pot over and over just suffice to say that like the folks who doubted that we'd ever have a housing meltdown – it took an actual meltdown to convince them.

    I find Jim's proposals intelligent but hollow because the problem all along on the Republican side is that they themselves cannot mount a majority view within their own party as to what to do or not to do.

    I keep wondering what exactly it would take for 3-5 Republicans to agree to a compromise… anyhow really know?

    finally, I may have referenced this before but I'll point it out again.

    Germany has a pvt healthcare system – that provides universal coverage – true.

    look here:

    …."… Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland [do not use] a government-run, Medicare-like health insurance plan. They all rely on purely private, nonprofit or for-profit insurers that are goaded by tight regulation to work toward socially desired ends. And they do so at average per-capita health-care costs far below those of the United States — costs in Germany and the Netherlands are less than half of those here.

    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/17/health-reform-without-a-public-plan-the-german-model/

    As RH said.. there are LOTs of options just as Jim B advocates but where is the majority support ?

    We should walk away … only when more and more become personally impacted will they be really interested. Until then, it's all about "leave my HC alone".

  3. Darrell -- Chesapeake Avatar
    Darrell -- Chesapeake

    Background info concerning the GOP idea of dumping the Corp. Tax. Where's the beef?

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/bp59.pdf

  4. Darrell -- Chesapeake Avatar
    Darrell -- Chesapeake

    Cali goes it alone?

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/21/dems-revive-single-payer-health-care-in-california/

    Man, am I glad I don't live on the Left Coast any more.

  5. Anonymous Avatar

    "We should walk away … only when more and more become personally impacted will they be really interested."

    Larry is probably right. It will take a lot of personal meltdowns before the anger gets high enough.

    But what a terrible price to pay. Thousands will go through what I went through, only worse.

    I have a close conservative friend who outlined to me the first step to socialism argument. He thinks the way to break this problem is to break the health care guild, and have a lot more practitioners.

    That is part of the options in front of us, but I think he does not recognize that it too has very high costs. He is perfectly willing to see the whole hing collapse until we find a better solution.

    But, he is a veteran and has Tri-care to fall back on.

    Massachusetts has mandatory coverage, to fall back on. Why should they be the losers that pay extra for some other state that got a bargain?

    All politics is local.

  6. Groveton Avatar

    Excellent post. Well written. My only quibble is that you, like Obama, spend too few words describing what will happen if nothing is done. Obama should have spent the first year selling the concept that health care in America is broken. He should have sold the belief that, over the mid to long run, health care is as big a problem as jobs over the short term. Instead, he just jumped into the details of reform.

    You make the "winners" vs "losers" argument and it explains the politics of the matter. However, it is a myopic view. If health care costs rise at +2.5% of GDP for the next 40 years we will all be losers. You are a great writer Jim – put pen to paper and tell us how that would look if it really happened. Most of the people who will buy Boomergeddon will be over 40 years old when they purcgase the book. They are old enough to remember, old enough to think in the long term (i.e. 40 years). Paint a picture of business as usual in American health care. 40 years ago was 1970. 40 years from now will be 2050. Your readers can understand timeframes such as these.

    Oddly, if you do paint a picture of America in a business as usual world, you might help Obama with his health care plans. A modern dystopian tome, along the lines of Brave New World, might represent the start of something good for Obama … defining the scope and scale of problem before rushing in to fix the problem.

  7. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Groveton, you anticipate my intentions exactly. This passage is just four pages out of a much larger manuscript. The chapter is organized as follows: (1) how demographic trends are driving health care costs upward, (2) how sucessive waves of "reform" have made the problem worse, (3) how even the positive elements of Obamacare don't address root problems, (4) how the medical-industrial complex uses its clout in Washington, D.C., (and state capitals) to protect itself from disruptive entrepreneurial competition, and (5) how we're probably going to end up with rationing because (a) the physician shortage is bad and getting worse, and (b) rationing is the only way a statist health care system knows how to control costs.

    Bottom line for Boomers: Good luck finding a doctor, much less paying for one, when you're 80 years old.

  8. rationing? what do we call what we have right now ?

    Trying to sum up Jim's thoughts into one or two succinct concepts.

    We're too stupid to see what is happening and so we do the political equivalent of howling at the moon and burning witches at the stake.

    In other words – "forgive them for they know not what they do".

    really?

    The SCOTUS just officially anointed the way we talk about health care and basically gave those folks a great big "atta boy" and to widen that technique to elections.

    just wonderful.

    I keep hearing that our Conservative friends just want "a seat at the table" and an "open and transparent process".

    Given the history here… where did these guys suddenly come from? Are they not the same crowd that loved Tom Delay before they kissed Rush Limbaughs butt.

    and NOW they "just want a seat at the table"????

    I just can't clear my head of these images of wolves in sheeps clothing with big crap-eating grins on their faces.

    If these guys get back in power, even Jim Bacon knows what will happen – NOTHING.

    This is a joke… The division is idealogical – anti-government – anti "socialist" and no prisoners will be taken after the white flag is put away.

    The American people will twist and turn until enough of them realize that howling at the moon is not very intelligent.

  9. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Larry, as usual, you interpret everything through a partisan lens. There is nothing in my post that suggests Republicans would do health reform any better. Indeed, the only politician I give any credit to is Mark Warner, for thinking about ways to increase the productivity and quality of the system.

    Instead of maligning our partisan opponents, we need to be thinking about what needs to be done.

  10. Anonymous Avatar

    "We're too stupid to see what is happening and so we do the political equivalent of howling at the moon and burning witches at the stake."

    Priceless.

  11. re: partisan lens

    I respected the Republicans, in fact, found them a vital check on the tax & spend yahoos in times past.

    These would be the same Republicans that voted FOR Medicare and FOR SCHIPS as opposed to those who refused to.

    What we have left right now is precious few of those who have a middle-ground perspective and even those are being hunted to extinction by the more viral of those critters.

    I think this article explains it succinctly:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/23/AR2010012302951.html?hpid=topnews

    "..[5th cong district] Perriello's opponents are so divided about who is the best conservative to replace him that they are transforming what should be a gimme for Republicans into a national emblem of GOP strife, "

    so what we have is a blocker party – with no hope of them promoting an actual HC agenda that they would use to work compromises with the Dems and then vote for the eventual product.

    The Republican Party in it's current condition is incapable of being an effective participant in anything other than the most mundane matters.

    Everything else results in knock-down drag-out internal strife and the survivors show up with absolutely no intention of contributing anything or voting for anything.

    The whackos have taken over the party and poisoned it.

    This is coming from a fella who has voted Republican in the past and would like to in the future.

    so… okay.. perhaps partisan lens is a fair label but it's a lens that is different than before… and it got changed.

  12. Anonymous Avatar

    "The whackos have taken over the party and poisoned it.

    This is coming from a fella who has voted Republican in the past and would like to in the future."

    In the words of (Patsy Cline?) I second that emotion.

    RH

  13. Like I said.. Jim Bacon gives his list of things "that could be done" and there is a plethora of other Republicans who also give their list.. but nowhere to be found is the Republican Agenda for HC.

    Let's be clear.

    Ronald Reagan said

    "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem."

    Ronald Reagan is the hero of the Republican Party.

    They openly admit this.

    They openly say that we have too much government …that it's too big and too intrusive (except of course when it comes to personal morals)….

    this is why there is real official position for the Republican Party – because they're playing this game where as individuals they say "we _could_ do this and we _could_ do that" but they are not serious at all.

    This mere pap for those stupid enough to believe such sentiment.

    When push comes to shove and a plank needs to be put forth that represents the Republican View on Health Care Reform – there is no such critter – because…

    any Republican who actually signs on to such a thing will be selected out of the herd by the right wing political death squads.

    He/she will then face opposition at the next election from THEIR OWN PARTY.

    The Conservative Viewpoint on HC reform is a joke – basically designed to fool enough of the gullible independents that the Republicans actually have a position on HC.

    Folks like Jim B have their hearts in the right place but they can't bring themselves to admit the reality of the Republican Party now days.

    This is the dirty little secret of the Republican Party. They've always had the torch-bearing vandals hiding in their ranks… but now they've taken over the body of the Republicans like a viral parasite… turning it into a virtual zombie.

    Any Republican now days – his/her days are numbered as soon as the phrase RINO is etched on their forehead.

    When you got a Senator like Grassley who is forced to utter such foolishness as "pulling the plug on Granny", you KNOW there is a problem.

    John McCain? J.D. Hayworth says this:

    "Arizonans have a clear choice _ a clear, commonsense, consistent conservative, or they can remain with a moderate who calls himself a maverick," Hayworth said."

    we are witness to the demise of this party IMHO.

  14. R. Stanton Scott Avatar
    R. Stanton Scott

    One of the most interesting things about health care "markets" is that improving technology has not reduced costs. I think this is because markets in health care do not effectively allocate resources: as technology improves, we place an infinite value on the next unit of "production" because of a moral requirement to do anything to extend life. This is not so in other markets, where I settle for the best technology I need rather than demand the best technology available, since it probably doesn't offer a chance to prolong my life (or at least I don't perceive it that way).

    So we've already placed a value on the next unit of health care with respect to saving human life, as the "death panel" worriers fear. The problem is that no price point exists where we will not purchase the marginal unit (except perhaps at the very extremes). Factions in my family kept my grandmother alive far beyond the point where any quality of life remained–or even memories of the life she lived–but social norms shamed dissenters into acquiescence at enormous cost to the family. And don't forget the Terri Schiavo brouhaha–clear evidence that this norms prevails far into extreme cases? Until our norms about extending life change, or life-saving innovation stops, no effort to limit the growth of health care will succeed.

    Providing performance and cost data will not make health care markets more efficient, since consumers will always make the decision to purchase one more unit of life saving care, whatever the cost. Moreover, our social norms will eventually involve a third party payer, if necessary. Even the wealthy will exhaust their resources if they get sick enough, and our social system will permit people to expire for lack of resources only reluctantly.

    If the goal is a balance between cost containment and performance in the health care system, the answer is probably to accept health care as a public good, and spread the cost among all citizens. This means some sort of single payer insurance system, whether using a British, German, or Swiss style of system. While nowhere perfect, such a system (or hybrid thereof) works well elsewhere. One thing we do know for sure: the market for health care in the US has failed spectacularly.

  15. re: death panels for granny

    this is the most corrupt of many of the supposed "concerns" of those who say they oppose HC.

    Medicare is what? 45 years old and has how many "grannies" covered by it… and how many examples of pulling the plug on granny have we heard of?

    How many grannies have been "terminated" in the other countries that have nationalized HC?

    Here's the deal. ANY INSURANCE is going to have to have limits in the coverage governed by the premiums.

    If this is not done – you have no insurance at all because the plans will go bankrupt.

    So you have to draw lines but in no way, shape or form is it "death panels".

    And he's the reality. If you or your parents is on Medicare – all you are really entitled to is how much you paid into it.

    Where does it say that you are ENTITLED to 5, 10, 20 times what you've paid into for?

    What pvt policy would give you that deal either?

    and you know what? if you don't like the limits – you are free to spend your own money to the limits that you want as many wealthy people do.

    So.. if you are not a wealthy person who can spend unlimited funds on keeping granny alive then what the heck are you ENTITLED to?

    This is such a disgustingly dishonest approach to this subject.

    As soon as there is ANY discussion about "limits", the weirdos go high-order even though all of the pvt policies and all of the plans in Europe – they ALL OPERATE THIS WAY – because they must.

    We are such a group of idiots on this issue.

    The time comes when each one of us WILL DIE and in the past – without Medicare – you got to the end of your own financial resources – and that was it – with or without pvt insurance.

    that's the reality.

    Why in the world would anyone expect the govt to operate any differently than the pvt plans.

    Both of them MUST – balance their pay-outs with their revenues.

    The Europeans have just as good as technology as we do – and they are dealing with the same exact issues of costs verses premiums.

    We do have the best medical care in the world – for those that can afford it but not for those who cannot.

    If you have pvt health insurance, and you think they are going to pay to send you to the best of breed Hospital for Cancer or Heart Disease – you are dreaming.

    They'll pay PART of it to the LIMITs and then the rest is up to you.

    and that's the way that Medicare should be and any other govt HC – like they have in Europe also.

    You get your limits then you decide if you want to pay more.

    Call this reality "death panels" is for HC debate VANDALS that really are no better than their juvenile counterparts using graffiti to explain their view of the world.

    we are such RUBES to believe this crap.

    We do not pay attention. We do not use critical thinking on this issue – and in the end – we deserve what we get.

    When it comes to HC, as a society, we are LOSERS – literally and figuratively.

  16. what we have in this country is the most bizarre advocacy and here is how it works.

    According to those opposed to "govt" HC –

    No one should be FORCED to buy HC because that's "wrong" so they don't buy it. Then when they get sick, they wait until it's so bad that they go to the ER where the bill is 2, 3, 5 times what it would have been had they been insured

    and then …this is the REALLY good part…

    WE PAY… the people with Insurance PAY…
    not the guy who refused to buy HC.

    and his view is that the ER is an "entitlement".

    this is why your Premiums are going up faster than inflation.

    so those that oppose reform – are actually advocating for the right to be financially irresponsible AND an entitlement mindset from the same person that is financially irresponsible.

    The ONLY solution to people who are financially irresponsible is govt rules.

    If this were a credit card – we'd give these folks the credit card but tell them that they could not use it except at the ER.

    That's what we are doing.

    and if we make a rule that requires them to contribute up front to the HC that they will need later on – it's "socialism".

    No.

    Socialism is when you accept all comers at the ER and guarantee treatment.

    THAT's SOCIALISM folks.

    so efforts to REFORM this really bizarre concept are … that's right.. socialism….

    I think people have taken a stupid pill.

    we KNOW why we pay twice as much for HC – at least the ones who are in full control of their brain – which I realize excludes the Limbaugh types but most folks who blog here – they KNOW why we pay twice as much for HC.

    It's as clear as that doggone pimple on your nose….

    yet.. we let the crazies run amok to succeed in implementing a "no way, shape or form" reform……

    Here's a solution.

    Instead of unspecified premium increases – the insurance companies should put right next to the increases:

    "uninsured scofflaw fee".

    you know.. like we all have to pay the uninsured motorist fee…

    so .. how about a little "truth" in billing ?

    When this fee starts to approach the premium for the rest of your health care – I'm quite sure the wingnuts will go into full revolt.. with Wilkes 45 leading the charge.

  17. Anonymous Avatar

    " that improving technology has not reduced costs. "

    Why would you think that improving technology reduces costs? Seat belt, crash cages, and catalytic converters result in a better product, but at increased cost.

    If improving technology reduced costs, you could buy a NASCAR for less than a Toyota.

    Don't confuse a better result with less cost. A better result might be less cost – all things considered. You might find that you are buying down other costs with higher costs for health care.

    But there has NEVER been a serious political discussion on this topic.

    ——————————–

    " we place an infinite value on the next unit of "production" because of a moral requirement to do anything to extend life. "

    Same problem we have in the environmental business.

    The problem in the health care business is that we all know that eventually the next "average" unit of production will be our own personal unit, at which point it becomes very valuable.

    Sooner or later we are going to have to accept the fact that we prioritze some lives as being worth more than others. We put prices on lives and health every single day, just not very rationally.

    This is not just a health care issue. For $100,000 per life saved, we have lots of options other than paying doctors and med techs.

    ——————————–

    Larry, i think you went off half cocked arguing against something Stanton never said.

    RH

  18. R. Stanton Scott Avatar
    R. Stanton Scott

    RH: improving technology always reduces costs–of making the same product. So better manufacturing technology makes production of a 1969 Mustang much cheaper, since it costs less to make steel, plastic, etc. Modern cars cost more because we added features, but much of the increase comes from simple inflation, and those without the added features cost considerably less than a comparable car from forty years ago.

    Indeed, the $2635 cost of a 1969 Mustang hard top has the buying power to get you a new Ford Focus today–stripped down by today's standards but including air bags, better seat belts, better crash protection overall, sound equipment, better interior quality, and much better quality with respect to the life expectancy of the car. So better technology has made this product much less expensive.

  19. Ray is a hard case on the technology.

    If you told him a modern heat pump that costs the same as earlier versions was more efficient and saved money… he'd dispute it.

  20. Anonymous Avatar

    "improving technology always reduces costs–of making the same product."

    Not in any business I've ever been in.

    Lets not confuse the issue between better manufacturing technology, and manufacturing a better product, and making a cheaper product.

    ——————————-

    You are defeating your own argument. If better technology makes THE SAME PRODUCT less expensive, then you have not improved the product, just lowered the price or increased the margin, depending on market conditions.

    In practice, the way this works is that manufacturing technology produces a cheaper product that is also WORSE, usually because it cannot be repaired. This results in tossing out a $200 windshield wiper motor that needs a common 25 cent delrin gear – because the motor is autowelded shut, the autowelder being better and cheaper technolgy than a grunt putting on four nuts.

    In short, you have to look at total costs, not just your percieved costs.

    ——————————

    With regard to Medical technology, a PET scan gives a much better picture than an X-ray, but it is NOT the same product. Over time – the cost of CAT scanners has come down (manufacturng efficiency, learning curve, more suppliers, new knowledge) but CAT scanners are still more expensive than simple X-rays.

    There is no reason to think that improving the product with more complex technology will bring the price down. In Medicine we are improving the product and the technology, not builing the same product (as you argue above) with cheaper technology.

    GENERALLY, this will cost more, but SOMETIMES you make a real breakthrough that allows you to do the same thing cheaper: IPOD vs Victrola, for example. Certainly this DOES happen in Medicine, but Medicine is not like IT, as a rule.

    Propping open an artery with a stent is a lot cheaper than a bypass, but is not the same product, even though it may provide a smililar medical result (temporarily).

    My complaint with your argument is that in Medicine we mostly make MUCH MORE expensive technology that does the same basic job – prolong life. If A and B equally prolong life by six months an A costs half as much, then we can we can prolong twice as many lives with A, for the same money.

    Until we run out of market for A (we can treat everyone who needs A), why would we EVER invest in B?

    Your argument is that we get the stent done, and when it fails we ratchet up to the bypass anyway. In that case, the stent saved us no money, except the time value of money for duration when the cost of the bypass was not (yet) expended.

    It is the same old deal as always:

    Total cost = Production Cost + External Cost + Government Costs.

    Benefits count as negative costs in each term. The goal is to lower TOTAL costs.

    In health care we pay our own production (insurance) costs and we get the benefit of our own care. But as Larry points out we also pay the costs for those who don't buy insurance It is and Exteranl cost to us, and an exteranl benefit to those who do not have to pay for health insurnance (as long as they win the bet and don't need it).

    Government costs are (presently) low because government inadequately monitors what is going on or participates in failed market repairs.

    The health care argument is about whether we can lower some individual costs through economies of scale and market mending (no more free riders), enough to offset the higher government costs.

    And then just to confuse things we throw in a sizable dose of selfish and ethical considerations, as you correctly point out.

    We recognize when the cat has no further quality of life left, but with grandma it is different.

    We have some of it, but there is no well-understood menu that says, yes, you can have this procedure, it costs this much and statistically it has that result.

    Pharmaceutical ads are getting there: "For $4.69 this will stop your nose from running but you may go blind, suffer from permanent incontinence, and lose all interest in sex."

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar

    "If you told him a modern heat pump that costs the same as earlier versions was more efficient and saved money… he'd dispute it."

    —————————

    Different argument entirely. Anyway you changed the argument. The previous argument was whether efficiency saved ENERGY.

    The more efficient we make airplanes the more energy we use in them. But this is a case where you changed the product. Airplanes move more people, they last longer, and they are quieter.

    That new heat pump, doing the same job, heating the same house will save you money (in operation) compared to the previous one. But you don't have that OPTION, because the old heat pump (stent) is already paid for and worn out. Now you get to buy a new one at additional cost. And if it is really more efficient, it will probably cost more, too. You get the stent AND the bypass.

    Yippee, the more you spend the more you save. Sounds like an ad for a furniture store.

    It might eventually save you money, but it depends on how much cheaper it runs and how much it costs. If your old one only needed a 25 cent delrin gear (no longer available), then the correct analysis is not that you saved money by spending money on a new pump, but that you got robbed on your previous one because the government did not prevent a market failure.

    Total Costs, guys, total costs.

    Ten guys can do a hundred hours of useful work in ten hours, but (generally) a hundred guys cannot do the same work in one hour.

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar

    always reduces costs–of making the same product…….

    but including air bags, better seat belts, better crash protection overall, sound equipment, better interior quality, and much better quality with respect to the life expectancy of the car.

    —————————

    So, it isn't the same product (any longer), and it costs more.

    Same with health care, we are making a better product and it costs more.

    (Look,I actually agree the total cost of driving has gone down: that is why we drive so much more. We are getting MORE DRIVING for the money, the unit costs went down and total costs went up.

    I just don't think the analogy fits. The UNIT COST for each additional month of life is not going to go down.

    EMR would argue with you that the UNIT COST of driving cannot continue to go down, and for similar reasons.)

  23. Nina @ 220 Avatar
    Nina @ 220

    Grrrrreat post! As always 🙂

  24. Groveton Avatar

    This is how I would write Boomergeddon…

    I remember that day like it was yesterday. Why wouldn't I? It was the day i was scheduled to die. For most people, that day only comes once.

    I was on my front porch at the old farm house in Crozet. The wooden steps were pretty much intact but the porch had seen better times. Once it was a beautiful wrap-around porch with gray planking and a white fence-like railing around the whole of it. My wife and I had spent a lot of time there with our four sons over the years. Drinking iced tea on a hot day, dr4inking cold beer on a hot night. Always greeting and being greeted by our neighbors in Crozet. Of course, that was then and this is now. My wife was visiting friends in Washington when the Islamic Front detonated that Russian nuke. We never found her, everybody just assumed she was vaporized in the explosion. The three oldest boys volunteered for service in Iran after that. One was killed in action, one disappeared and the third made it out to the Bahamas with rest of the lucky ones. That left just me and Mikey at home on that fateful day.

    The Finalizers were due to meet us at 5 PM. Mikey and I just sat on the porch – each commanding an area where the planking still existed. I had my rocking chair, Mike had the last remaining dinner table chair from back when his Mom was alive.

    Mike was arguing, "We don't have to do this Dad. Let's just leave. We might get lucky. We might make it to see Jimmy in the Bahamas. Let's go. Let's run."

    But I was well beyond running. I'd seen my country destroyed from within and without. I seen my wife go away one day and never come back. I'd seen the same with three of my sons. Sixty years was a long life and the federal actuaries had to preserve what little wealth we had left for those who could most effectively use that wealth. I had high blood pressure, I had arthritis. The money required to support me could be better spent on a younger, more productive American. I knew that. But knowing some facts and accepting your death day were two very differnt things.

    The Finalizers showed up in two different government issued csars. You knew they were government cars becuase they ran reasonably well and didn't have the usual holes, rust patches and primer spots of private cars.

    The first man walked up the steps to the porch and said, "Are you Joe Jamison". "I am" was my reply. He handed me a legal document with the declaration that today was to be my final day. His collegue watched from the street with a wary eye on Mikey. I told Mikey to go inside the house. He looked like he was going to start crying but got up and walked over to me. "I love you Dad.". "I love you too Mike".

    Once Mike was inside the second finalizer walked up the steps with his black bag. "I'm sorry to have to be here" he said. "I'm sorry you have to be here too" I replied in a lame attempt at humor. The first man begcan tying my hands and legs to the rocking chair. I could see Mikey staring out the window from inside the house. The finalizer with the balck bag produced a syringe filled with a colorless liquid. He slightly pushed the syringe and a few drops of the clear liquid ran down the needle – just like in the movies. He bent over. He grabbed my wrist. He turned my forearm up. His head exploded in a pink cloud. He staggered back a coupe of feet and his foot went through one of the cracks in the planking in the deck. The other finalizer had gotten his pistol out of the holster and was turning toward the street when his face disintegrated in another burst of pink. I heard my son in the house scream, "Jimmy". Across the road my son Jimmy, apparantly back from the Bahamas, emerged with a sniper's rifle. He walked up on the porch and put two more slugs into each of the finalizer's heads.

    "How you doin' Dad" was all he said.

  25. no no Groveton.. it won't be this dramatic at all… instead… your monthly allotment of "free drugs" will arrive like clockwork in the mail… and by morning Mikey will be saying " it's about time that old fart moved on – he was starting to cost me real money"….. now I can finally afford to fix that porch.

  26. Groveton Avatar

    Oh LarryG – too funny – I actualy blurted out a laugh when I read your comments.

    The only challenge is that my kids know that all the money I have will be donated to the "Decendants of Pocohontas Eradication Society" uopn my death. There will be no house for Mikey nor any money to fix up a house. Instead, there will be the Richmond-less bliss…

  27. Anonymous Avatar

    You guys lost me.

    Let's see, I have to ration my expenses and set my priorities on how to spend my life.

    But if the government tries to do the same with its expenses and its priorites, then that is immoral, because it is my money and my life they are prioritizing…..

    RH

  28. Anonymous Avatar

    Sooner or later we are going to have to decide whehter we will have 7 billion people driving Tata's or a billion people driving Fords, or a half billion driving Mercedes.

    We will have to decide how much driving we can stand and when we will be better off on trains. And we are going to argue over the distribution of who pays for what, and who does without.

    Same with health care.

    We can only put so many cars on the road or do so many heart transplants before it starts cutting into something else with an equal moral imperative.

    We can have all renewable energy for a billion of us by putting the other seven billion on treadmills.

    But I suspect we would find that cost to be too high.

    RH

  29. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Groveton, I think you have the makings of a fine novelist — and a great premise for novel. I'd go for it, man!

    The Finalizers — there's a term that could, upon publication of your novel to national acclaim — enter the popular lexicon.

  30. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Nina@220, are you a real person, or are you a blog spammer? If you're real, please respond, so I'll know not to delete your post.

    Jim Bacon

  31. this is an example of what I am talking about with respect to the Republican Party now days:

    " Senate panel OKs ban on insurance mandates"

    " -A Senate committee narrowly approved bills that would declare Virginia exempt from potential federal mandates that people must buy health insurance."
    Three Republican senators–Jill Vogel, Fred Quayle and Steve Martin–had submitted nearly identical bills that would declare Virginia free from health care mandates that Congress is currently considering.

    They're part of a "pushback" against perceived federal government overstepping that has fueled the "tea party" movement. There are similar bills in the House"

    http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2010/012010/01262010/523544

    Now.. never mind that such a bill has not been passed at the Fed Level.

    Nevermind that the State of Virginia "forces" you to buy auto insurance or that the Feds "force" you to pay into Social Security and Medicare".

    And most important, never mind that millions of Virginians with health care plus the taxpayers who pay for healthcare for teachers are all looking at higher and higher expenses – because these health care plans include the costs of paying for the health care costs of people who don't have insurance.

    so these guys are not proposing solutions – even modest proposals like Jim Bacon has proposed – Nope.

    They are, in the name of the Republican Party, putting down a marker that essentially says: "we refuse to deal with the problem and we hereby submit legislation to make it official"

    Other Republicans say things like "we could do this" or "we could do that" but what actually shows up as legislative proposals is this – not any of the "we could do's".

    I keep asking – how do you go forward on this issue?

    what are possible approaches ?

    no. no. no. is not an approach.

    "

  32. Anonymous Avatar

    "no. no. no. is not an approach."

    Otherwise translated as:

    Better the screw job you are getting now than the one the DEMS/Government are planning for you to have.

    RH

  33. you know what killing jobs in this country?

    it's the unrecognized "tax" on hiring new employees – i.e. providing them with "benefits" like health insurance.

    Even if you hire someone, when the increases in costs keep on coming, you have to go back to your employees and tell them that they have to take a pay cut to make up for the employers increased costs for Health care.

    this is going on across the country and it especially affects small businesses – you know those businesses that the Republican say are the backbone of the economy.

    When the guy who runs the heating and air conditions service gets more business – it's cheaper for him to hire part-time or pay overtime – or just put people on salary than it is to hire new employees an think about expanding the business.

    All of this goes back to the escalating costs of health care – twice the amount that it costs in the rest of the industrialized world..

    all because .. the folks who know how to sell Tide and Zantac also know how to sell "no more govt HC" to the same clueless people who buy the Tide and Zantac – based on little more than a paid actor blathering the appropriate words into that flat screen TV.

    I give the opponents credit.

    they just blew away their opposition and there is every likelihood that they can easily repeat the feat over and over.

    That's what leads me to believe that, as a country, we have yet to face up the the realities.

    Remember, these are the same folks who sign up for ARMs and pay thousands more for a car than they should, as long as they can get financing… and who cannot show you Iraq and Afghanistan or Iran on a Map.

    but they can tell you the intricate details of the latest Budweiser Commercial or the current American Idol contestants.

    I give the Republicans all the credit. They KNOW the American People MUCH, much more than the Dems…. who really are slugs when it comes to not even know until after the fact that the Republicans have cleaned their clocks.

  34. Anonymous Avatar

    "you know what killing jobs in this country?

    it's the unrecognized "tax" on hiring new employees – i.e. providing them with "benefits" like health insurance."

    ==================================

    I don't understand why the Republicans don't get this.

    If I thought for a second I could get health insurance, I'd have my own business.

    The funny thing about this argument is the history: originally health insurance was used as an enticement to get post war workers to come work for you.

    For some reason, at that time, it wasn't seen as a "hindrance" to business. It worked, and works now, becasue the income represented by benefits is not taxed as income.

    If health insurance were taxed as if it were bartered income, then companies would be less likely to provide it, (I think) and just give cash instead.

    Workers would have to buy on the open market and insurors would have to compete for their (individual) business (against granite counter tops, as Larry points out).

    I can't see any advantage to this because it is an expensive way to sell, individually. The other end of that spectrum is universal mandatory coverage with virtually no sales charge (still have some admin expense though.) If it was really universal and valuable, you might be able to save a lot of money on the census……..

    We are still decades away from universal coverage (at this rate), so we wind up with a bastardized half system with group (and cheap) rates for those healthy enough to have a job, and jack squat for everyone else except the government workers.

    Sure any version of the legislation going around would inrease total costs, (probably), but you are not buying the same product – you get more coverage for more people.

    "Oh, it costs to much and it will bankrupt America", they say.

    OK, so Spain has universal health coverage, and Spain is a lot poorer than the US. Same for Taiwan. Go figure. They made different ethical choices than we do? Have different priorities?

    RH

  35. Anonymous Avatar

    Precondition for being a legislator or member of the Administrative branch.

    You must first appear on "American Idol", "Survivor", or "Lost"

    RH

  36. we buy auto insurance and fire insurance individually…

    but I agree.. providing insurance as an untaxed compensation is wrong and I'm surprised that the fiscal conservatives don't come out and say this.

    Our county is now going through the throes of budget for schools and you know what one of the biggest cost drivers is?

    that's right – the INCREASE in the costs to the school systems (the taxpayers) ….

    Now… just to further emphasize my point.. where you live – whether it's Fairfax, or Henrico of Facquier… find out who the biggest employer is in your county….

    more than likely .. it's the school system….

    I'll bet that in Henrico.. there are 4000 or more school employees and probably 10,000 or more in Fairfax.

    Then look at the the health care costs in your school budget – paid for by your taxes.

  37. Anonymous Avatar

    "…we buy auto insurance and fire insurance individually… "

    =============================

    But the risks are well known, and steady state.

    Your house has a (more or less) known and ageed on value.

    The probability that it will burn down in any given year from 1 to two hundred is pretty much the same.

    With your car we all agree that it is worth less as it ages, and therefore the insurance is less.

    But with health insurance the cost of each inremental month goes up, and near the end it goes up geometrically. 95% of all you health costs willoccur in the last five years of your life.

    If your house burns down it gets replaced with pretty much the same technology: you don't have some ubercontractor show up with a multimillion dollar tele-reportation machine to reconstitute your old house by restoring its collective DNA.

    But, even with you home and auto insurance, you may STILL have to sue your own insurance company, just to collect what they promised.

    That whol industry needs a whuppin.

    RH

  38. used to be an insurance product called – whole life with the option to cash it in if you needed it.

    different insurances work different ways but they all have numbers that determine the appropriate premiums.

    basically – we've got people who will not put aside money for their future needs….

    .. and that would be fine.. if the rest of us were willing to watch them earn their just desserts…

    .. but we're chickens…..

    .. not only chickens.. but the dumbest of the dumb…

    .. because we wait.. and they wait.. until the loss is maximized – at which point – we pick up the tab….

    .. so the same folks yammering on and on about Tea Parties and socialism… they pay…

    every year.. in the last 10 years.. most of them do not get a pay raise – because their raise got sucked up paying for their increased health care insurance…

    … so they do that.. and then in their spare time.. they go to Town Hall Meeting and shout "keep your grubby hands off my health care".

    .. right.. they'd rather give their money to the insurance companies and the folks who don't buy health care…

    dumbest of the dumb… they were taking a crap when God gave out the brains…

  39. Anonymous Avatar

    Here is FAuquier County and this is probably pretty typical

    Retail trade 3,849 15.1%
    Construction 3,243 12.7%

    Public
    administration 2,575 10.1%

    Other prof
    services 1,908 7.5%

    Finance,
    insurance,
    and real estate 1,852 7.3%

    Educational
    services 1,735 6.8%

    Agriculture,
    forestry,
    and fisheries 1,663 6.5%

    Health services 1,427 5.6%

    Manufacturing
    durable goods 1,421 5.6%

    Business and
    repair services 1,416 5.5%

    Transportation 995 3.9%

    Communications
    and other
    public utilities 855 3.3%

    Personal
    services 810 3.2%

    Wholesale trade 770 3.0%

    Manufacturing,
    nondurable
    goods 608 2.4%

    Entertainment and recreation services 303 1.2%

    Mining 101 0.4%

    RH

  40. Anonymous Avatar

    If you group that together it means that in Fauquier almost 7000 people are engaged in builidng and repairing the places where we live and work.

    Another 3700 make and grow things.

    Then 3500 in trade and transportation to sell and move all that stuff.

    Then you have another 2500 in Public administration whose job (so it seems) is to prevent the first 12,000 from accomplishing anything.

    Finally you come to Educational services at 1700.

    855 people in Communications so we know what to buy sell and move.

    And then there are the people who take care of us: Health, and Personal Services, which is 9% of thhe working population.

    And finally, the entertainers.

    —————————

    What this means is, The Public Overhead of adminsitration and schools is 16%, interms of heads.

    To hear Fauquier Officils tell it, Agriculture is the most important part of the county, but it isn't.

    Construction and real estate is bay far the largest in people and payroll. The AG payroll is miniscule, in terms of dollars, compared to the construction payrolls.

    Meanwhile the people who just take care of the rest of us amounts to a 10% drag on our human resources.
    So it is costing us 25% of our working resources, just to authorize us to get through the day, and patch us up after.

    Public administration costs us twice as much as health services (in people anyway), beut we think we cannot afford health care.

    Lets get this in perspective: we spend more on chewing gum and cigartettes every year than we do on health care.

    RH

  41. Anonymous Avatar

    If you just look at the overhead of all governmet workers vs all private workers, it is north of 25%.

    If Government is 30% of the eeconomy, and the other 70% is cutting back because they are unemployed and have no customers, then what do you do?

    The states are all millions in the budget hole, so they are collectivley cutting back.

    If you think the Feds spending stmulus package is bound to fail, then all those cutbacks at the state level ought to succeed / counteract, No?

    Or vice versa. Pick your poison.

    RH

  42. Anonymous Avatar

    "Senate rejects Obama plan to create commission on federal deficit.

    Republicans have warned that they would not participate in a panel created by Obama, which would lack the legal authority to force action in Congress. "

    "Republicans opposed to tax increases joined Democrats fearful of being forced to make cuts to social programs in rejecting the idea."

    Surprise.

    RH

  43. I think what most of us would probably agree on no matter what our political philosophy is and that is now days – the elected politicians act like they're not elected but instead rule but they keep arguing over who rules what but voters are just something you sell bogus advertising to.

  44. Anonymous Avatar

    Always throw every incumbent out, until we get it right.

    We can call the new third party the NEXT party.

  45. nice try… until I see the tea party folks actually doing that…I won't believe it.

    Right now, the tea party folks seem just fine if the incumbent is a Republican….

    bad sign….

  46. Groveton Avatar

    "Oh, it costs to much and it will bankrupt America", they say.

    OK, so Spain has universal health coverage, and Spain is a lot poorer than the US. Same for Taiwan. Go figure. They made different ethical choices than we do? Have different priorities?

    It just so happens that I am in Spain today (Barcelona). I'd be very hesitant about copying the Spanish approach to macro economics. Unemployment is currently 20%. There is very little hope that the recession will end anytime soon here in Spain.

    In fact. there is a new term for the European countries which might retard the global economic recovery –

    Portugal
    Ireland
    Italy
    Greece
    Spain

    PIIGS.

    It's pretty bad over here.

  47. being one of the unemployed whether it be of the 5% variety or the 10% variety or worse is different if you – and your family, still has access to health care until you do find work again.

    so the unemployed in Spain get much better health care than the unemployed in the US – right?

  48. "…still has access to health care until you do find work again."

    Precisely.

    In the U.S. no job equals no (affordable) health insurance. Hell, I have a job and it's not affordable…..I went to the doctor ONCE in 2009 and my rates are going up…..AGAIN.

    There are plenty of PIIGS in this country….

    -AARP Insured By Aetna
    -Aetna
    -Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield
    -CareFirst BlueCross BlueShield
    -Celtic Ins. Co.
    -Kaiser Mid-Atlantic
    -Optima Health Insurance Company
    -UnitedHealthcare

  49. Anonymous Avatar

    "Unemployment is currently 20%. There is very little hope that the recession will end anytime soon here in Spain."

    Agreed.

    That was part of the point I was trying to make.

    Higher government costs borne by citizens and business will retard commerce and growth.

    Some countries have apparently accepted higher taxes as the cost of an adequate safety net for the unemployment that higher taxes causes.

    We would prefer that you be working and then go bankrupt for lack of a safety net.

    RH

  50. Anonymous Avatar

    There are plenty of PIIGS in this country….

    And at present that makes a pretty nice basket of stocks to own. I think I'm up 500% on my United Healthcare.

    Helps make up for th edifference in my Premium to Benfit ratio.

    RH

  51. the businesses that have the most trouble offering affordable (or any) health coverage to their employees are Small Business.

    Any Small business that does this for their employees is automatically put at a competitive disadvantage because this cost has to be incorporated into the prices they charge for goods and services.

    These businesses will not grow if every new employee drives them further into a competitive hole.

    So what happens is these small businesses do not hire even when they are capable of expanding or.. they stop offering health insurance or they don't give raises because that money has to go to pay for insurance premiums that have gone up.

    Now… consider this same small businesses operating in a country where health care is not the concern of that business – just compensation.

    They are free to expand, free to hire new employees, free to give raises.

    Health Care should not be a tax-free compensation.

    That boils down to a gigantic subsidy that is being abused just as much as the subsidy for mortgages was.

    Every healthcare plan should be required to be listed as taxable income.

    I think that feature alone could radically change how health care is sold in this country.

  52. question of the day.

    Is insurance mandated by the government – socialism?

    how about when insurance is mandated by a mortgage provider?

    is that socialism?

    what's the difference?

  53. "And at present that makes a pretty nice basket of stocks to own. I think I'm up 500% on my United Healthcare."

    So what?

    If you get sick enough they will probably get everything in your portfolio….plus some.

  54. sorta like having stock in a Mafia "Protection" business then they come to you to collect.

  55. Anonymous Avatar

    Insurance is freemarket socialism.

    Mandated insurance is non freemarket socialism.

    ———————-
    social means
    -relating to human society and its members; "social institutions"; "societal evolution"; "societal forces"; "social legislation"

    -living together or enjoying life in communities or organized groups;

    But socialism implies state ownership of industry or capital.

    Somehow we have gotten into a core confusing words situation where the benefits of being social beings have become distorted: social is good – socialism is bad.

    And the problem is how, exactly, socialists get control of industry or capital: they steal it, which isn't a very social concept at all.

    ——————————-

    As planned government will not take over the insurance industry, and so no social ism is implied. But conservatives are as sure as their cement shoes that this is the first step to socialized insurance and or medicine.

    RH

  56. so…. if your mortgage company says you not only gotta have insurance, but you got to have it to their desired limits….

    that's not "mandating" ???

    or.. it's okay because private industry can do such mandates but govt cannot?

  57. Anonymous Avatar

    So what?

    If you get sick enough they will probably get everything in your portfolio….plus some.

    ——————————

    Precisely the point I made in response to Groveton. In this country we prefer a situation that allows you to work until you go bankrupt.

    Buying stock in healthcare is making the best of a bad situation. A delaying tactic.

    If I get sick enough, maybe I will die before they get it all. You can save a lot of money on health care by just dying sooner.

    Some people have suggested that our anti-smoking and other health campaigns are not cost effective for just that reason: let em, smoke, die and get it over with.

    RH

  58. Anonymous Avatar

    if your mortgage company says you not only gotta have insurance, but you got to have it to their desired limits….

    ————————

    They cannot force you to sign the contract. You can always rent.

    Government can apply force.

  59. " et em, smoke, die and get it over with"

    well, now you're advocating the Republican approach – die and die quickly.

  60. Anonymous Avatar

    I'm not advocating that, just pointing out that the idea is out there.

    Since I will only be insured as long as I can work,i may as well save as much as I can for when I cannot work.

    If health care is 17 or 25% of GDP then I need to plan on saving 17 or 25% of my income for future health care costs. And such "medical savings accounts" ARE a popular idea among Republicans and conservatives.

    Now, lets talk about what that kind of savings rate would actually do to the economy. Historically we have been at one or two percent, which isn't enough.

    Now we are at 5% and people are worried that if people get really sacred and it goes to 6 or 7%, it will kill the recovery.

    Plus, we are planning on growth to help cover future debt payments.

    The Republican "plan" is suicide, not just for those who can no longer afford to live, but for the entire economy.

    RH

  61. Anonymous Avatar

    I'm not advocating that, just pointing out that the idea is out there.

    Since I will only be insured as long as I can work,i may as well save as much as I can for when I cannot work.

    If health care is 17 or 25% of GDP then I need to plan on saving 17 or 25% of my income for future health care costs. And such "medical savings accounts" ARE a popular idea among Republicans and conservatives.

    Now, lets talk about what that kind of savings rate would actually do to the economy. Historically we have been at one or two percent, which isn't enough.

    Now we are at 5% and people are worried that if people get really sacred and it goes to 6 or 7%, it will kill the recovery.

    Plus, we are planning on growth to help cover future debt payments.

    The Republican "plan" is suicide, not just for those who can no longer afford to live, but for the entire economy.

    RH

  62. I'm not sure about that strategy of looking at HC as a percentage of GDP then comparing to your own future needs since we know that if your number comes up wrong – you'll end up bankrupt in a heartbeat.

    See that's the entire idea of insurance.

    If your goal was to have enough in savings to pay for your house if it got destroyed then that would be a far different goal than finding out what the insurance costs for the same level of security would be.

    I think even you would admit that putting aside more money than you need to is a waste.

    so why would you put aside a whole bunch of money – that may not be enough anyhow… if you could get the insurance?

    Bonus Question:

    How many people on Medicare will, before they die, consume more in benefits than they paid into it?

    let's say as a percentage…

    out of 100% of those on Medicare, what percent of them will end up using more than they paid into it?

  63. Anonymous Avatar

    I'm not sure about that strategy of looking at HC as a percentage of GDP then comparing to your own future needs …

    ———————————

    You are correct. If everyone calculated that way, then on average there would be enough money set aside to pay for the health are that was used.

    Some people would never use any of what they set aside, and suddenly drop dead one day, at no cost.

    But another person might save just as diligently and come up a cropper due to bad habits, bad genes, or just bad luck.

    As sone as ONE of those happens, there is no longer enough money in the system to get the doctors paid, because the heirs of the healthy (but now dead) guy, have got the money he saved.

    But if you know the overall system expense is 17% now and growing to 25% later, the 17% is as good a target as any, except that it is probably not doable for any except the most wealthy.

    In a nutshell, that is the problem: we cannot afford 25% or even 17%, and anyone who recognizes that jumps to the conclusion that the national system cannot work, so they are better off taking their own chances.

    Or at least the ones UHC and others will let them have.

    Ration one way or ration another.

    RH

  64. Anonymous Avatar

    "If your goal was to have enough in savings to pay for your house if it got destroyed then that would be a far different goal than finding out what the insurance costs for the same level of security would be."

    ==========================

    Well, if you had 17% losses across all housing, then your insurance premiumes would hae to be 17% plus admin fees plus profit for the insurors.

    But the difference is that everyone pays to insure their house,and the insurance company has the premiums from the healthy guy to pay the rest of the losses.

    But with medial savings plans,that doesn't happen. Suddenly your cost of coering all of your POTENTIAL loss goes way up. The only way you can replace your house is if you can afford to save enough to pay for two of them.

    So now you start to settle, for the 90, or 80 or 17% solution.

    You might be able to downsize and still live in 17% of your house, but 17% of a heart bypass is next to worthless.

    —————————-

    Except for Hurrican Andrew or Hatian Earthquakes, housing losses are well understood and reasonably uniform.

    But with health care, each incremental month of coverage is always going to cost more.

    RH

  65. if both guys paid for insurance though – the doctors would get paid… right?

    That why both guys should put some money on insurance and some on savings…. for their heirs if they so see fit or not if they do not.

    but with just about anything else from an aircraft accident to an athletes legs to liability – most of us would be more efficient if we bought the insurance with just a portion of what we'd have to save to cover the loss.

    That's what insurance is……

  66. Anonymous Avatar

    It seems to me there is nothing wrong with the Republican ideas of selling insurance across state lines, allowing associations to create group plans, and having some tort reform.

    If Obama wants the Republicans to bring him their ideas, why haven't these been adopted?

    I don't think they will do much good, overall. I think they are fiddling at the margins, but I don't see much harm either.

    Froma policy or cost perspective, what have the DEMS got against these ideas, other than they came from the other side of the aisle?

    RH

  67. Anonymous Avatar

    if both guys paid for insurance though – the doctors would get paid… right?

    —————————–

    Right but both guys (most probably) ARE paying home insurance, but not health insurance.

    You pretty much HAVE to buy home insurance but no one forces you to buy health insurance, unless youlive in Massachussetts, UK, etc.

    Which is wierd because if you don;t have home insurance YOU are the one at risk, but if you don't have health insurance, well, you are still at risk, but so is everyone else.

    And there is the problem.

    And you are still stuck with the fact that as long as health costs are 17% of GDP, everyone is going to have to pay premiums of 17% of gross pay (or MORE), in order for insurance to have enough to cover the fees.

    RH

  68. why haven't ANY of these ideas been implemented in the previous 8 years?

    this is a totally disingenuous portrayal of what has happened.

    The Republicans NOW have ALL OF THESE great ideas on how to do reform LITE…

    and not a single one of these ideas was even proposed by any of these same Republicans in the previous 8 years.

    I think their whole philosophy is corrupt and disengenous.

    They are fundamentally opposed to Govt regulation of the HC industry… it's as simple as that.

    The regulations that prevent selling across the state lines is Republican-approved "regulation" to allow these companies to essentially set up exclusive franchise territories much like Exxon and the oil companies did back in TeaPot Dome.

    The Republicans SUPPORT regulation that provides higher profits… don't misunderstand.

  69. Anonymous Avatar

    So here is a plan.

    We guarantee to cover your health insurance costs, whatever they are.

    Then, after you die, we "claw back" whatever we paid for the last two or three years from your estate, or heirs.

    Then, no one can complain about death committees: you get all the care you need, at the time, but the insurance actually expires retroactively from the time of you death.

    On the other hand, if yu have a serious illness and survive at least two or three years, no problem. You are covered by insurance and the clock resets.

    (Practically speaking this probably means the death committee becomes your family. A lot of families might prefer a dispassionate government panel than having family members dancing around your death bead like it was the Jerry Springer show or maybe "The Price is Right".

    RH

  70. re: " if you don;t have home insurance YOU are the one at risk"

    not if you can get treated for free at an ER.

    No one else, the govt or other premium payers of home insurance is going to pay you when your uninsured house burns down

    but these same folks will pay for your emergency room care that you cannot pay for.

    you have to understand something here.

    Why would we have such a dumb system?

    Because the more expensive health insurance becomes – the higher the profits in selling it.

    The health insurance companies LIKE THIS SYSTEM.

    It allows them to raise your premiums almost every year and add their profit to that transaction.

    The Doctors and Hospitals like it because it allows them to sell more expensive services – and to make a profit on them.

    We have the most disgusting system in the world – bar none – and apparently no shortage of supporters.. those who know the score and like it and those who are clueless and easily influenced by TIDE-like commercials.

    Between the folks who really know what is going on and the dumb butts.. we are in a pile of trouble.

  71. Anonymous Avatar

    "…and not a single one of these ideas was even proposed by any of these same Republicans in the previous 8 years."

    ============================

    But that isn't the question. Now that they are out there, what have the DEMS got against adopting them?

    I agree the Repubican position is cynical and disingenuous, but I don;t see what that has to do with these ideas.

    Are we afraid that UHC will become "too big to fail"? What is wrong with farmers co-ops being able to negotiate for group rates?
    And surely there are SOME kind of limits that we can put in place to make sure that people who are damaged by the sytem get taken care of without turning them into the next Warren Buffet.

    RH

  72. Anonymous Avatar

    re: " if you don;t have home insurance YOU are the one at risk"

    ————————–

    You missed the point. it is exactly what I said. If you don;t have HOME insurance, then YOU will be the one without a home, and there is little effect on anyone else except support for the homeless shelter.

    But as you point out if you don't have health insurance, everyone else pays anyway, at least once you go critical.

    So the incentives are backwards: when you are most at risk (with your home) we have the most force applied to make sure you (your bank actually) is covered.

    And where you hae the least risk (because the emergency room won't turn you away) we have the least force applied to make sure you have coverage.

    RH

  73. re: why should the Dems refuse to implement the Republican ideas?

    good question and we already know the answer.

    Because the Republicans themselves are opposed to many of these ideas.

    These are ruses.

    If, for each one of these "ideas", you poll the Republicans, you'll find a lot of opposition.

    What the Republicans are doing is NOT PROPOSING a plan but hand-waving "maybe we could do this" ideas.

    This is why they never passed legislation when they were in charge to start with.

    The only ideas that will truly get solid Republican support on the ones that will increase profits and remove regulations that protect consumers – which is why the Dems won't go along with them.

    The Republicans NEVER WERE interested in reform that would actually result in a better situation for more citizens – if it adversely impacted the for-profit companies.

    get it?

    every plan in Europe severely restricts for-profit companies and essentially makes HC like we do electricity – it's a common utility necessary for health and welfare and so profits are regulated and limited.

    The Republicans are unalterably opposed to that concept.

    If they had their way, Dominion could charge whatever the market could bear – and those that were forced off of the grid – tough cookies.. same deal as those without HC insurance right now.

    They basically are a sneaky and disengenous bunch primarily dedicated to those who are wealthy and they see the middle class as fodder for profits.

  74. Anonymous Avatar

    "Because the more expensive health insurance becomes – the higher the profits in selling it."

    —————————–

    Not if people can't afford to buy it.

    Prices and benefits go up on one curve. Cost go up, while sales and profits go down on the other one.

    Wherever they cross you get the most benefits, and the most coverage at the lowest (TOTAL) cost.

    Republicans think the current system does that efficiently (Even if ruthlessly for those without insurance).

    Democrats think the external costs of unpaid services mean the system is NOT efficient and need government market intervention to find the spot with the TRUE lowest total costs.

    TC = PC +EC + GC.

    RH

  75. Anonymous Avatar

    "If, for each one of these "ideas", you poll the Republicans, you'll find a lot of opposition.

    What the Republicans are doing is NOT PROPOSING a plan but hand-waving "maybe we could do this" ideas."

    If that is the case then all the more reason DEMS should push to get them accepted, and then watch the PUBS try to wiggle off the hook.

    ——————————-

    This is still a political answer. My question is still what is intrinsically WRONG with any of these ideas?

    I don't see it, whatever it is. Why would these ideas make us WORSE off?

    RH

  76. the same people who do not buy health insurance by the way would also not buy auto insurance or home insurance if they were not forced to.

  77. " Not if people can't afford to buy it."

    right.. how many times have you heard that argument for electricity, gasoline, homes, granite countertops?

    they don't care how many people cannot afford it as long as they can keep jacking the price – and profits keep going up.

    as long as profits go up .. that's their bottom line…

  78. re: " Why would these ideas make us WORSE off?"

    It depends what you mean by WORSE off.

    The Republicans think that people in Europe are worse off because they have a "socialist" system.

    Their unit of measurement is not the costs of HC or even the life expectancy but the fact that the govt is a "nanny state" and people expect it to take care of them instead of them being personally responsible for themselves.

    If you think this is idealogical thinking where the ideology supplants a public good you are right.

    When you get right down to it – this is why some oppose and some support UHC.

    It's about what you think is BEST but you won't agree on what IS BEST.

    that's why I say this is a dishonest debate because the folks who are opposed are opposed essentially for idealogical reasons – not practical ones.

  79. If you health care ins was classified as compensation and taxed and you had the choice to accept it or not accept it but use the cash to get your own – and everyone had that option – you might actually get a real market for that product with some competition but the health care companies would not like that.

    they prefer to have "captive" customers and to be able to compete for their raises.

    In other words, if the company can afford to give raises, the insurance companies see that a a profit center.

    Instead of letting the employees have that money for other expenses, the insurance companies suck it up in premium increases.

    It's a totally predatory practice …aided and abetted by the Feds – at the behest of the companies who argue that HC insurance should not be taxed.

    got it?

    Here's another little understood fact.

    Most folks who have insurance, when they retire want to keep it to cover what Medicare won't cover but guess what the insurance companies do if you try to make Medicare your primary coverage?

    Yup.. they don't like that idea at all…

    so they force you to make Medicare your primary and then continue to pay the same premiums for less coverage – in effect – a Medicare subsidy for the pvt insurance companies.

    This is why you see the insurance companies running Ads on TV about Medicare being attacked to pay for HC.

    Right.. if you take away the Medicare Subsidy to the Insurance companies.. it will affect their bottom line so what they do is FUD – Fear – Uncertainty and Dread – to the Medicare folks… you know.. "pulling the plug on granny".

    The US people are RUBES…

    What we have is these companies controlling the country…. in the name of "personal responsibility" while their counterparts in Europe have been brought under control.

    All we need to do in this country is shout motherhood and apple pie .. and "down with the nanny state" and socialism and our people go for it hook, line and sinker…

    rubes..

  80. this is why I agree with the Obama critics but for very different reasons.

    Obama and his folks including the Congressional folks were confident that they could beat the opposing forces – who have been at this for a long time and are essentially experts at opposing UHC.

    Obama and his folks grotesquely underestimate the power than these folks wield.

    Not only did Obama lose on the HC issue – but in the process he damaged his entire Presidency – all because he had a bunch of wise butts who were wet behind the ears – formulating strategy against an opposing group that made Obama's guys looks like the kids they are.

    They were not only not ready for Prime Time.. they were not ready for sub-PRime time.

    idiots!!! They make Bush/Cheney strategists look like Oracles.

    finally… notice some of the less hard core Republicans who actually thought that compromise was a goal – those folks are NOT saying this "well thank goodness.. now we can move on to REAL problems to solve".

    Nope.. they know it. The pooch has been screwed.. they know it. but they can't fret or wring their hands cuz then they'd look like those lily-livered liberals.

  81. Anonymous Avatar

    re: " Why would these ideas make us WORSE off?"

    —————————

    but I am talking only about these three "Republican" ideas:

    Cross state insurance sales, association sales, and some tort reform.

    What is the Democratic argument agains why these should NOT be included?

    If there is no reason, then why haven't they been included? Spite?

    RH

  82. Anonymous Avatar

    "they don't care how many people cannot afford it as long as they can keep jacking the price – and profits keep going up."

    ————————–

    Nonsense, profits do not go up if you can't sell any.

    I sell 100 items for $100 apiece and make $10 profit for a total of $1000.

    If I "jack up the price" and sell them for $200, I make $110 in profit for a total of $11,000 – if I can sell them.

    If my customers can afford them.

    If someone else isn't selling them for $100.

    Yes, I might make "more money" selling granite countertops over formica, but my margin of profit might be lower because I have a high cost of acquisition and inventory. I make "more money" and have "more profit" but I'm working harder and taking more risk.

    RH

  83. the tort reform is a backdoor attempt to take us back to the time when victims were squashed in court by big-time law firms – see the Paul Newman movie – "The Verdict" to see how this was done.

    The cross-state proposal is bogus because it would require taking away the companies anti-trust waivers and they're not going to go for that – and no Republican is either when it actually gets down to a vote.

    I'm not sure about the associated idea except that the Insurance companies essentially have a monopoly – a govt-guaranteed one at that and they don't take kindly to "competition".

    You're actually believing the Republicans… like others do.

    They have no intention of voting these things – it's a ruse.

    If they really wanted to do these things – they already would have.

    It's rope-a-dope.

    that's why I say Americans are Rubes.

    there is no credible reason to believe the Republicans would vote for these things now anymore than previously.

    this was a "take off your shirt and let's settle this in the back alley".

    and the Dems got the living crap kicked out of them.

    and now the victor is grinning and saying " yeah.. I woulda compromised".

    right… dream on…

  84. it's not "risky" when you got a guaranteed customer base that you could raise premiums on – take it out of their paychecks..and their only option is to quit that job.

    this is like you get a free ticket to the ball game then find out they do't allow you to take food in and hot dogs are $7.

    You could argue til the cows come home that no one in their right mind would pay $7 for a Hot Dog they could get for a quarter and those folks would just smile condescendingly at you – correctly thinking you are the rube you are.

  85. Anonymous Avatar

    They have no intention of voting these things – it's a ruse.

    ——————————-

    Same answer again.

    My question is what is wrong with the IDEAS? I don't see anything wrong withthem EXCEPT if tort reform is over done.

    If the Republicans really are putting these up as a ruse,then the Dems should call their bluff, and go ahead an incorporate them.

    Let the Republicans try to explain why they voted against their own ideas.

    —————————–

    I'm not convinced thei is a vast Republican conspiracy to make it LOOK as if they have some ideas, when all they are is sandbags.

    RH

  86. Anonymous Avatar

    "it's not "risky" when you got a guaranteed customer base that you could raise premiums on – take it out of their paychecks..and their only option is to quit that job."

    ——————————-

    Nonsense, employers stop offering/supporting health insurance all the time. Raise the raes too much and your customers cannot afford it.

    It isn't an option to quit that job if the new one doesn't offer health care. Either way the insuror is out the premium and the profit, if the price is too high.

    RH

  87. as long as you have 'enough' customers and your profits are healthy and growing – there is no reason to "reach out" to more customers.

    Just as with Cod Fishing – no one company is going to be looking at what the industry as a whole is doing to the resource.

    re: why don't the Dems incorporate?

    don't you think they would have Ray, if it would have brought them 3 or 4 or 5 more Republican votes?

    don't you think if the Dems were willing to make all these "stinky" deals that they'd certainly be willing to make a few more?

    see you don't get it.

    There is no reason to incorporate these Republican ideas if no Republicans will vote for it anyhow… and that's the situation.

    None of the Republicans will vote for what is already in there.

    The dems would have to take out what's in there right now and put in these other things before SOME Republicans MIGHT vote for it.

    but don't count on it.

    For every Republican they win over, they may lose a Dem… who won't go along…

    the question is – have the got a bill that maximizes the votes?

    there's more than one way to skin a cat.

    in a budget reconciliation – which only needs 51 votes, the non-taxable status of HC plans could be nixed.

    There are a lot of potential tax code changes that could completely change the financial landscape for health insurance.

  88. Anonymous Avatar

    see you don't get it.

    There is no reason to incorporate these Republican ideas if no Republicans will vote for it anyhow… and that's the situation.

    ===============================

    If that is the case then incorporate them just to prove the Republicans are not serious. Why let THEM sit in the catbird seat saying the DEMS won't listen and won't negotiate?

    I still don't see anything WRONG with allowing associations to create group health plans. So why not allow it, whther the Republicansl (actually) like it or not?

    RH

  89. the dems _could_ take these things – one at a time – and process them.

    We'd find out pretty quick whether or not more could follow.

    My bet is that ANYTHING that the Dems propose …WILL BE… filibustered….

    because in the end.. for the Republicans, this is not just about HC.

    It's about camel-nose-under-the-tent incrementalism towards a socialistic nanny state.

    the Republicans have pretty thoroughly bloodied the Dems nose.. the question is.. are the Dems ready to wade in or are they worried about a worse beating….

    you know those liberals.. when push comes to shove.. they're yellow bellies…

  90. Anonymous Avatar

    My bet is that ANYTHING that the Dems propose …WILL BE… filibustered….

    ——————————-

    But these are Republican ideas. Are they going to filibuster temselves?

    Yo slhave ot poined to anything wrong with the IDEAS.

    RH

Leave a Reply


ADVERTISEMENT