We Are Losing Sight of Public Health in Vaccination Debates
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69 responses to “We Are Losing Sight of Public Health in Vaccination Debates”
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I write with shot number 2 fresh in my arm. I tell myself that I was number 100 million this morning, as advertised by Biden….but my thanks for this go to former President Trump and Secretary Azar. Biden yesterday claiming (and GETTING) media credit for this milestone was sickening.
It will be a battle getting a law passed to mandate these vaccines, even for those in key jobs interacting with the public. Rationalized refusals (see above) are one thing. But deep down the Powers That Be do not want to end the emergencies and disaster declarations, no no no.
Vic’s comments are discouraging. I spoke with a friend the other day, who is in the authorized age group, and he is taking a pass as well. They and others like them will give the Authoritarians all the excuse they need to keep us under their thumbs.
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They don’t have a right to refuse a vaccine and also demand that we let them have jobs that endanger people who have no option but to be in close quarters with them. Find a different job.
It appears the unalienable rights have met a brick wall known as COVID-19. Mandatory vaccination or we are going to punish you is the same thinking that brought up the never ending Patriot Act.
Should you get the vaccine, yes. Should you be required to get the vaccine, no.
The notion that you’re going to receive approval beyond an EUA in the near future is an exercise in futility.
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So how are we to tell the difference between the folks that already had COVID and were sent to nursing home to kill the folks, by state order by lacking state oversight, compared to those workers who did mask up and do their best for protocols? How many of them got appropriate PPE and training for it? Don’t we think that the workers who wanted to, wanted to protect their families also?
Yes nursing homes aren’t the greatest places, but not all the folks there who don’t want the vaccine may not be the ones causing the issues.
As for schools, teachers are the issues, not the kids. That’s by the data. What I’ve seen so far in schools doesn’t seem to give me a requirement on teachers’ being all required to get the vaccine.
Realize there is a big difference between the previous vaccines and the mass enforcement of people in trials for these vaccines, which is what the unpaid folks are right now: guinea pigs for the vaccine companies.
Btw, for the record, I never listened to Trump. I have no TV, haven’t for more than a decade. I looked at the guys’ policies and the outcomes of them. I read the medical info, since I’ve been subscribed to that stuff for more than a decade.
I’ve taken a look at the IFR’s for my gender/age.
Obviously without TV (and I don’t read the local or national MSM, I get information from researchers and other countries) I have a load of stuff filtered through a more fact based lens. I don’t see the need to require vaccination at this point in time and want to see what happens when everyone who wants it, gets it and then the data there.
This is totally different technology than the vaccines you mentioned. Based on IFR’s, (and not the popular 99% one put out), I can’t see it.
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Neither of us is a physician or public health expert. Your personal research is not dispositive. Nor would mine be. The current ignorant but loud public cacophony won’t solve anything.
The point of my column is that laws need to be considered, much like the MMR imperative for school attendance, after the GA takes testimony and has, say, UVa Medical Center produce a study for the GA saying what legislation is justified by the facts.
And they need to do it before next January.
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It is enough to get attention of school boards and stand up in court to go on.
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I write with shot number 2 fresh in my arm. I tell myself that I was number 100 million this morning, as advertised by Biden….but my thanks for this go to former President Trump and Secretary Azar. Biden yesterday claiming (and GETTING) media credit for this milestone was sickening.
It will be a battle getting a law passed to mandate these vaccines, even for those in key jobs interacting with the public. Rationalized refusals (see above) are one thing. But deep down the Powers That Be do not want to end the emergencies and disaster declarations, no no no.
Vic’s comments are discouraging. I spoke with a friend the other day, who is in the authorized age group, and he is taking a pass as well. They and others like them will give the Authoritarians all the excuse they need to keep us under their thumbs.
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I believe the phrase was give me liberty …
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…some mention of death, as well. Take the shot.
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I’ll take death. Covid doesn’t appear to be the killer in my age group/comorbidity group.
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Nope.
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This is on your side of the aisle Haner… 😉
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If a kid who’s parents refused to vaccinate him against tetanus can pay $800K from the state kitty for him, well guess what? He didn’t get the shot when he left either. Same for measles outbreaks. Works both ways.
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It’s just as authoritative to make the vaccinations mandatory. It’ll normalize punishment for not placing a substance in your body as direct by the Government.
People should take the vaccine, but it should be their choice.
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I’m a 2SM2…2 Shot Man Too and I beat you by 2 days
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I’m a 2SM2…2 Shot Man Too and I beat you by 2 days
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“reliable sources” on FB are reporting that the vaccine will only protect for 3 months.
😉
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Blame the authoritarians, not me. I believe others should have the rights given to free people, not slaves.
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Blame the authoritarians, not me. I believe others should have the rights given to free people, not slaves.
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They don’t have a right to refuse a vaccine and also demand that we let them have jobs that endanger people who have no option but to be in close quarters with them. Find a different job.
It appears the unalienable rights have met a brick wall known as COVID-19. Mandatory vaccination or we are going to punish you is the same thinking that brought up the never ending Patriot Act.
Should you get the vaccine, yes. Should you be required to get the vaccine, no.
The notion that you’re going to receive approval beyond an EUA in the near future is an exercise in futility.
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Do you want to erase the current MMR requirement?
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The current MMR requirements allow for exclusions. The unvaccinated may be excluded from school during an outbreak.
Also, MMR isn’t COVID-19. The most recent license for MMR was 2009, under which individuals can seek damages if they feel so inclined. The COVID-19 vaccine does not fall under VICP, you release them of that when you receive it (waiver).
Do vaccines cause injuries? They can just an any medication can, given the right circumstance. That is why malpractice insurance is required.
Again, understand the difference between making something mandatory or not.
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Is that a yes or a no?
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Is MMR mandatory?
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Yes. See the law in the column. Religious objectors are protected.
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Which law would that be, as there is no federal law regarding mandatory vaccination as you are promoting.
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Which law would that be, as there is no federal law regarding mandatory vaccination as you are promoting.
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See Code of Virginia § 22.1-271.2. Immunization requirements. It is quoted in the essay.
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Mr. Sherlock,
What you’re suggesting would require federal backing. Given the current arrangements made with the manufacturers you’re creating another Feres Doctrine. Again I have not stated I’m against vaccines, merely against mandatory. When I joined the military I gave them the permission to provide me or inoculate me with anything they saw fit. Citizens do not do that, they retain all of their rights and liberties. Jacobson has been abused since it’s ruling.
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If Virginia can write Code of Virginia § 22.1-271.2, it can write one requiring COVID vaccinations for specified jobs for protection of the public health. Part of the police powers of the states.
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That’s ironic since you’ve spent the last year objecting to the Gov. Abusing his powers of emergency, that’s called checkmate you just lost your argument.
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I called for a law, Matt, not an executive order. Let’s quit this.
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That’s not what you’re advocating for at all. You’re using the guise of “public good” to craft legislation that has no limits. The same exact powers that have been granted the governor to which you’ve complained.
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BINGO!
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No they aren’t. Reference the bills from this session past.
What’s your authority for stating somebody doesn’t have a right to refuse a vaccine? The Nuremberg Code includes the principle of informed consent and the non-requirement of medical experiments. We also have a right under the Constitution. Do you know if you get injured or die from this vaccine that the vaccine manufacturers cannot be sued? Same with kids and their childhood vaccines that went from 5 doses in 1960s, like 11 doses in 1986 when they were absolved from all legal liability of harms and deaths their products cause? No other industry is afforded that luxury. So what did they do? They now have something like 70 recommended doses by the age of 18 and over 200 more in the pipeline. Guess what? They want all adults to catch up to the childhood vaccine schedule?
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The black line indicates a block quote from the post. They are not my words and I don’t not believe that Jacobson which is would be the grounds used is valid. The Nuremberg Code is not Law anywhere.
Can vaccines cause injury? Yes, that’s why VICP exists. Are those injuries rules or exceptions, mostly exceptions. Do I believe people should be vaccinated, yes. Do that mean I believe in mandatory vaccinations, no.
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“..,absolved from all legal liability of harms and deaths their products cause? No other industry is afforded that luxury.”
There is the gun industry…
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No, people kill with guns; guns don’t do it independent of a person. If a gun is defective, you can sue and get compensated. No so with vaccines.
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If a car manufacturer made and marketed a car designed to kill people and a person used that car to intentionally run over innocent civilians, they would (and should) be potentially liable for civil action. The gun industry is not.
But if you don’t like that one, I would suggest you try to sue the tobacco industry for damages for the death of say a family member from cancer.
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We’re not dealing with a fictional “car designed to kill” because that’s just not real. The metaphysics are that when there is an accident and it’s due to the faulty mechanics of the car, you can sue. When it’s the driver’s error, you can’t sue the car; you sue the insurance company/person. I suspect the same with guns, if the mechanics cause an accident, you can sue the manufacturer, right? If it’s due to a mentally unstable person, you shouldn’t be able to sue the manufacturer because it’s not the gun that caused the accident; it’s the individual. So cars can and do kill either by faulty mechanics; the same with guns. Are you suggesting we ban all machinery – cars, planes, trains, motorbikes, et cetera – because, whether mechanics/people, can kill? I’m just trying to follow your line of thinking to its logical end. Now let’s deal with tobacco. Initially the government and the companies hid the risks. Then the products did not display full risks. You could still sue and be successful. Now that the risks are all out there and one knows or should have known – it’s no longer secret – it comes down to personal responsibility. You put yourself at risk knowing the consequences.
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“We’re not dealing with a fictional “car designed to kill” because that’s just not real.”
But we ARE dealing with another product that is designed and marketed to efficiently kill other humans. And hypothetical is not fictional. You should try to answer the question.
My father was taken from us nearly 40 years ago by tobacco. I have had to live much more of my life without him than with him because of tobacco. I was clearly damaged by that product. No, I have no right to sue because big tobacco bought them selves civil product liability immunity with their so-called “settlements”. I’ve never seen a dollar of that for my reparations.
Then there are all the weapons manufacturers and military contractors. All immune from civil product liability.
So, yes, other industries are indeed afforded immunity from damages from their products. At least in this case there is a legit public health reason behind it. Not just a payday for corporate lobbyists.
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“Not a legit public health reason behind it.” All right, might I suggest you pick up a few history books. Russia, China, Germany, Cambodia, Iraq, Turkey, Guatemala, Uganda, Australia, Ukrainian gypsies, today in Crimea. all disarmed their people and collectively hundreds of millions were killed. Look at the Muslims today being killed in China; look at the Christians being killed in the Middle East now. Look what happened in UK after they banned private gun ownership. The point is people are vulnerable to tyrants. History shows us over and over again this is true. Look for the documentary “Innocents Betrayed”. It tells of over 17 million people in the world who were disarmed by their government “for their own safety.” – yes, you guessed it, they were slaughtered. You live in this country because the colonists had guns to fight the Revolutionary War. U.S. cities that have gun control have the highest homicide rates. It makes it easier for criminals to harm others. Criminals don’t follow laws and they have guns illegally – failed in Chicago, D.C., Seattle, Minneapolis. Look at the absolute chaos in cities like Seattle, Portland and Minneapolis where they called for defunding the police and city officials were/are standing down and the criminals are destroying everything. The utopian age is over; that ended with the Modern Age. We now live in the dystopian age in the Post-modern Age (Age of Irrationalism). I also recommend you look up all the times that the U.S. government has (and is currently) secretly experimented on us without our approval. Look at the craziness going on in the world right now. Human nature can be brutal, and to think that everyone is going to give up their guns and sing kumbaya illustrates your ignorance of human nature and what is happening in the world now. So if you want to give up your right to protect yourself from someone entering your house with the intent to harm you or take your stuff, you have that right. With all the unconstitutional bills in Congress right now that are intent on basically stripping every liberty we have as Americans, there’s no way those who are aware of human nature, history, and the massive disturbances going on globally will disarm ourselves willingly. You ought to be thankful many Americans are cognizant of this.
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Thank you!
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Who is discussing gun control? That was quite the rhetorical leap there. I have no interest in taking your guns. We were discussing product liability immunity. Nothing else.
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Who is discussing gun control? That was quite the rhetorical leap there. I have no interest in taking your guns. We were discussing product liability immunity. Nothing else.
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It’s a dilemma. Sure, people should be able to opt out. But I really don’t want to be in a hospital with nurses who refused. I’ll sue the crap out of them if I get sick. I know I’m never getting on Air France again without proof of vaccination. I had to take a bunch of shots to go overseas when Dad was still USAF with an overseas gig. With limits, there could be jobs where this is required. MMR makes sense for kids because those are childhood killers, while COVID clearly is not so I don’t see a COVID mandate for them.
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The other complication coming up is community activities eg; vocal/instrumental music. Your group could be ready to get back together, but then it turns out some members opt out of the shots, and then another member says well I am not participating if that guy or gal was not vaccinated. So far these emerging conflicts are academic since most of the activities have not been able to start back up yet.
We’ll be looking for guidelines and how other groups are are handling. The other thing is we just got our new non-profit insurance policy, and as might be expected, the big change this year is non-coverage of communicable disease liability (which is interesting that we did have coverage in the pre-COVID base case).
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This is the essential tension between those who say they have the “right” to not get vaccinated and those who say they have the right to not be infected by others who refuse vaccination.
sort of “your “rights” ends where my “rights” begin.
Of course anyone can claim they have been vaccinated when they have not and who would be the wiser?
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This one also involves rights ending at the end of our noses… 🙂
As to your second point, I expect there will be a vaccine passport of some kind. At least for international travel.
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Yeah, your dilemma may soon become cognitive dissonance if you dare to look, and I fully understand not everybody will be able to look at the information. Hopefully your cognitive dissonance will get you to the place of not trusting your government and looking at the next steps to protect our way of life. Our government is up to no good (they’re screwing with us, and it looks deliberate). I am telling you to go to the primary sources to see for yourself. It’s not adding up.
Look at these articles:
1) Please listen to the video from OAN – and then go to the CDC website.
a) “Over 84% of all Covid-19 deaths are in Democratic states, according to the CDC. Hospital systems are accused of counting patients who died from serious pre-existing conditions as Covid-19 deaths in order to receive more money from the government for Covid-related deaths. The CDC updated their death counts to reveal that Covid-19 is rarely the actual cause of Covid-19 deaths.”
https://sandrarose.com/2020/10/cdc-reveals-hospitals-counted-130000-heart-attacks-flu-and-bacterial-pneumonia-as-covid-19-deaths/
b) Go to Table 3: “For 6% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 3.8 additional conditions or causes per death.” Only 6%. So the Worldometer tracking right now states 554,119 deaths in the U.S. 6% of that is 33,247 deaths attributed to covid only. Emphasis, death toll from covid is 33,247. Not a pandemic. But why? Good question.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3-wrg3tTKK5-9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q2) “VAERS data released today showed 38,444 reports of adverse events following COVID vaccines, including 1,739 deaths and 6,286 serious injuries since Dec. 14, 2020.” Remember that’s only 1% so the #s are 380,444 adverse events 17,390 deaths and 62,860 serious injuries. This article breaks down several of the adverse events. So it looks like the jab again causes more harm than the disease. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/cdc-ignore-inquiry-death-injuries-covid-vaccine/?utm_source=salsa&eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=a5407627-42ed-4863-b452-bd2e657449ad
3). Watch Sen. and Dr. Rand Paul grill Fauci over masks are just theatre: https://ijr.com/paul-grills-fauci-vaccinated-still-wear-masks-isnt-just-theater/
Watch/read transcript of this Mexican actor grill Fauci and watch Fauci squirm due to his contradictions: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/eugenio-derbez-grills-fauci-interview/?itm_term=home
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I found this statement to be particularly interesting: “Hospital systems are accused of counting patients who died from serious pre-existing conditions as Covid-19 deaths in order to receive more money from the government for Covid-related deaths. The CDC updated their death counts to reveal that Covid-19 is rarely the actual cause of Covid-19 deaths.”
We frequently hear it said that the U.S. has had more COVID deaths per capita than almost every other country in the world. The implication, of course, is that we have done an especially poor job of managing the epidemic.
I always wondered — do we have more deaths in fact than other countries, or do we just count deaths differently? The statement quoted by Deborah suggests that we may be counting deaths differently — deaths with COVID as compared to deaths caused by COVID.
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We would have to look at excess 2020 death statistics per Country to sort it out. Apparently final data is not yet available, but:
USA estimated to have 335,000 more deaths in 2020 than 2019. That seems to be in approx. agreement with USA COVID deaths which hit 400,000 in mid Jan_2021.
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More deaths? Or WITH vs. CAUSED by COVID?
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From my quick analysis, it tentatively looks like estimated excess total deaths for 2020 vs. 2019 are consistent with the reported number of COVID deaths. Caused by COVID. Of course, we know people with other health conditions were hit worse by COVID.
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Exactly – we don’t know.
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Jim – do you consider One America News Network (OANN), to be an authoritative and trusted news source?
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That’s exactly right! We do not have more deaths than other countries. The CDC tells us how exponentially hyper inflated the numbers are in Table 3, “”For 6% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 3.8 additional conditions or causes per death.” Only 6%. So the Worldometer tracking right now states 554,119 deaths in the U.S. 6% of that is 33,247 deaths attributed to covid only. Emphasis, death toll from covid is 33,247. Not a pandemic. But why? Good question. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm
and
One news agency OAN, among others, reported on it – watch in the link below “According to the CDC, 87,000 patients died from bacterial pneumonia and influenza. Another 17,000 died from chronic respiratory diseases, and another 26,000 died from adult respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) caused by bacteria.
Additionally, 44,000 patients died from hypertension not related to Covid. Yet those patients were also counted among Covid deaths.
According to One America News (OAN), hospitals counted 51,000 patients who died from heart attacks as Covid-19 related deaths.
Meanwhile, the number of patients who usually die from heart attacks in hospitals dropped considerably this year when compared to the same time period last year.
Also decreasing dramatically are deaths caused by influenza. Those deaths are being counted as Covid-19 deaths.
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And the CDC states this in their notes: “COVID-19 deaths are identified using a new ICD–10 code. When COVID-19 is reported as a cause of death – or when it is listed as a “probable” or “presumed” cause — the death is coded as U07.1. This can include cases with or without laboratory confirmation.” They count the unscientific “presumed” and “probable.” To me that’s disturbing. Go to Worldometer.info/coronovirus (Mind you that I did these calculations a few weeks back, but it illustrates the point quite well: For instance, The Worldometer tabulates cases and deaths from COVID-19 across the globe. Out of 221 countries, the United States has 56.69% (28,883,424) of total cases compared to other countries, and it has 46% (513,055) of total deaths. Yet the United States has 4.23% of the global population. One possible answer to why the U.S. has a disproportionate number of cases is the tests themselves: “Health experts say PCR testing – the most widely used diagnostic test for COVID-19 in the US – are too sensitive and need to be adjusted to rule out people who have insignificant amounts of the virus in their systems because they’re likely not contagious.” On January 13, 2021, the WHO warned against diagnosing solely due to positive tests, warns of the high risk of false positives, and indicates that additional steps need to be taken before reporting someone as positive. The Lancet provides additional information on the utilization of cases: “The absolute number of cases provides a misleading picture of how the epidemic evolves and does not allow comparisons by country or by region within a country … In almost all countries, COVID-19 testing capacity is low.” However, here in the United States testing is pervasive. Again, why? What we do know is that when coronavirus entered the consciousness of Americans in mid-March of 2020, the news ticker constantly scrolled the number of deaths due to COVID. In April 2020 the CDC began counting “probable” cases. At some point the news ticker switched from counting deaths to counting cases. Why?
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Jim – do you consider One America News Network (OANN), to be an authoritative and trusted news source?
Also forgot these two articles from The Epoch Times:
“A little-noticed peer-reviewed study published last October by a science and public health journal claims the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) ignored federal laws and regulations when it changed how the government counts deaths from COVID-19, caused by the CCP virus, also known as the novel coronavirus.”
https://www.theepochtimes.com/peer-reviewed-study-claims-cdc-skewed-ccp-virus-fatalities-upward_3741614.html?utm_source=morningbrief&utm_medium=email&[email protected]&utm_campaign=mb-2021-03-20
and
“The Biggest COVID-19 Vaccine Skeptics? Front-Line Health Care Workers.” This article goes through the skepticism of medical personnel in Europe and the U.S. and the reasons why. What do these personnel know and see that we don’t? https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-biggest-covid-19-vaccine-skeptics-frontline-health-care-workers_3724145.html?utm_source=news&utm_medium=email&[email protected]&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-03-13-2
Jim, I agree with you. The COVID vaccinations should be required, especially for people in jobs that bring them into close contact with the public. I have gone on record advocating that Virginia repeal the religious exemption for school vaccinations. See: https://www.baconsrebellion.com/get-the-shots/
I do disagree with your assertion that, before COVID, the American public “by and large did not spend five minutes a year worrying about vaccinations.” There has long been an active group of people spreading false information about vaccinations. Probably the highest-profile of the vaccination opponents is Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. https://khn.org/morning-breakout/family-of-robert-f-kennedy-jr-publicly-chastise-him-for-disseminating-dangerous-misinformation-about-vaccinations/
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Never. The destruction of religious freedom makes this country no different than China, Cuba, Soviet Russia, North Korea. There is a reason why some freedoms were specifically made free.
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No one is talking about destroying religious freedom. No Constitutional right is absolute. The states of Maine, New York, West Virginia, California, and Mississippi do not exempt children from school vaccination requirements based on religious objections of their parents. Notably, not all those states are “liberal”. https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/school-immunization-exemption-state-laws.aspx
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That is exactly what you want: chip away at it like the 2nd amendment. So they were wrong, and could be over ridden. There is a reason why federal over rides states and the refusal of the left to stop going after the right, like in Masterpiece Cakes, when they can go elsewhere (like I do for refusal of business that is NOT essential, truly essential), tells us that progressives/leftists wont’ stop until we are subject to the state.
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Sorry Dick it doesn’t work like that. The founding fathers meant them to be absolute so that rights weren’t subject to the whims of the same folks that are hell bent on removing said rights.
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This is silly. The Constitution says that Govt will not promote religion.
There are a wide, wide range of religions that would “practice” all manner of things they believe in if the Govt had not made them illegal.
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True, that group is loud because of the internet but by all accounts relatively small.
[…] We Are Losing Sight of Public Health in Vaccination Debates — Bacon’s Rebellion […]
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