School Discipline Issues Meet Unshakeable Progressive Dogma
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44 responses to “School Discipline Issues Meet Unshakeable Progressive Dogma”
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Progressive outrage? Who writes article after article on the subject? Who is the loudest voice in the room? Look in the mirror.
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You know, progressives. Those are the people who know that even hot monkey rape sex will produce progeny, no matter how much or little interest the victim displays.
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Twice I have written about my experience with “double session.” If you are not familiar with it, it is designed for overcrowded, understaffed schools. The school day is divided into two sessions, a morning session and an afternoon session. Students are assigned to one or the other. Most of the teachers, however, have to teach both sessions. In my school, the problem was slowly resolved: More classroom were added and more teachers were hired. (This all took place in California.)
I hesitate to say when this was (1956-58) because there are people here who will spend more time attacking me for my ancient experience than discussing the merits of “double session.” Just yesterday, I observed that downtown Norfolk’s violence in the last 55 years had not changed for the better. The usual reply arrived, basically suggesting that my age had turned me into a bitter conservative, or words to that effect.
The author of the above article, one of Bacon’s best, and most prolific, authors, is slammed for his unrelenting concern over the state of public education in Virginia. People, there probably wouldn’t be a BR without this gentleman’s contributions. And who, among the many critics here, is doing anything for the kids?
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Who is not allowed? Superintendent Spence has stopped the involvement of folks on porn in the schools. The SB, progressive, GAVE him that authority which he illegally has no right to exercise, nor does the SB have any business dropping their jobs to an unelected bureaucrat.
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On the contrary, your experience from 55 years ago actually does well illustrate issues the public schools have been dealing with for decades.
It’s never been nirvana. It’s always had complex and messy issues including discipline (and other) issues – for decades. It’s the essential nature of public schools when folks kids from all walks of life are put in the same school and classrooms and told to share with others and respect others.
Why there is a uptick in resignations is not yet fully understood but I doubt seriously it’s due to one thing like discipline. I do agree with Eric that mass shootings and widespread availability of weapons to folks as young as 18 is a good reason for concerns for personal safety.
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re: ” “Q. Since the start of the school year, have you been concerned about your own safety because of student misbehavior? A. 38% very or somewhat concerned.”
Anyone else notice that the “very and somewhat concerned” is 48% for elementary teachers? Is that reasonable?
My problem with Sherlocks approach is that he seems to think the current data indicates failure without really comparing it to prior years in the same system or to other jurisdictions.
Then he does the same thing with the PBIS question.
He’s comparing these numbers to what? Prior years? other jurisdictions?
what percentage thresholds for two polls indicate “failure”? What standard are you using to make such judgements?
Then for his “mean parents” , instead of looking for comparable poll data from the same teachers who responded to the polls, he goes and quotes education leaders views.
What’s the truth about school discipline issues in general – in many schools – across Va? Is this district worse than other school districts ? Is it worse than it used to be>
We have no way to really calibrate the numbers, compare and contrast them across schools in general.
If Sherlock looks at only these numbers for one school district and one year, how is he determining that these numbers are “bad” or a “failure”?
If these numbers were in line with prior years and/or in line with other school districts across Virginia, would Sherlock then claim total failure in all public schools in Va?
I don’t know the data so I cannot even begin to judge, much less reach the conclusions that Sherlock has.
And how is pointing these issues out “moral panic”?
We need enough (historical and cohort) data from properly designed polls and it needs to include questions about the politicization of public education, salaries, etc, relative to resignations if we’re really want objective answers.
Sherlock is just pushing a pretty narrow and one-sided narrative IMO.
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Look at the actual incident numbers and types in just 82 schools, Larry. That is a good working definition of chaos. In what universe is that OK? How would you fix it?
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Do you think that ONLY disciplinary issues are what affect resignations?
What disciplinary numbers would you consider “acceptable” if the current ones are not?
How would you determine what are acceptable numbers – a norm?
What does it mean when the poll shows more elementary teachers concerned about personals safety than high school?
You’re looking at this issue in isolation IMO without looking at comparable historical or cohort data – so what are “good” numbers? Where would you find them? What alternative techniques yield those better numbers?
This is a lot like looking at something like traffic accidents or shoplifting and declaring it unacceptable without any idea of what “good” numbers should be.
Typically, we look at historical and cohort data to determine what is a norm.
What norm should we be trying to achieve here?
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Again, unless you have data to demonstrate that your 38% is higher than the previous year’s figure, you can not blame an increase in teacher resignations on their concerns over personal safety. You must first establish a correlation and you have failed to do so. In actuality, your VB survey suggests that there has been no significant net change in how teachers view school safety so it looks like your theory fails.
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That depends. The numbers could remain fairly steady, but the consequences of student behavior for teachers has not been mentioned. If teachers are chastised by parents, and we know that happens, per the teacher survey, significantly more than they were prior to this data set, then teachers could feel more threatened.
Teachers have Type A personalities. Most strive for perfection. They take it quite personally when their students misbehave and the parents and administration blame them. I would. In the end, every complaint would become personal and I would leave.
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Kathleen, I can accept that too many teachers are scared for their safety from the kids in their schools because we have hard evidence of the extent of that.
I lay the failure to improve that figure at the feet of PBIS, which is the school discipline system in Virginia Beach.
I accept that some teachers are angry at some parents. Always have been. Neither of us have data on the extent of that post-COVID, or how it affects resignations relative to the school safety and discipline issue. Exit surveys are notoriously unreliable because people don’t want to offend on the way out the door. So we may never really know.
The point is that school discipline and safety is something government must address. PBIS brings with it a huge overhead and is not getting the job done.
That se
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“I lay the failure to improve that figure at the feet of PBIS, which is the school discipline system in Virginia Beach.”
You don’t know if that figure is actually an improvement.
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Look at actual numbers, not ratios. Look at the incident categories and numbers in only 82 schools. In what universe is that acceptable?
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I did not say any figures are (or are not) acceptable, I said that the fear teachers cited at 38% could be lower than the previous year’s figure which would mean PBIS actually did improve things. You simply don’t know. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
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According to James here, angry parents has been ruled out as a cause of the increase in teacher resignations in Virginia.
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It is ruled out as something over which government can assert control. Discipline it can control. I have made my suggestions for discipline improvement. State yours.
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So now it is a net change issue. You are clearly unconvinced by Natansen’s article and a thousand others, including here, about unprecedented levels of resignations. So now you ask me to prove not only what those two union presidents are saying about surging resignations but simultaneously to disprove the reasons they offer for that phenomenon. I’ll leave it to you to prove that resignations are down. Remember while you are at it that there are no new data on teacher attitudes towards school climate since Covid started. Good luck.
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Think about the fact that PBIS is usually driven by a committee much like child study committees. How would you feel if you were a teacher and you got dragged before this committee to hear that you are promoting racism and the parents agree. I’d quit.
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Good gracious.
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So now it is a net change issue. You are clearly unconvinced by Natansen’s article and a thousand others, including here, about unprecedented levels of resignations. So now you ask me to prove not only what those two union presidents are saying about surging resignations but simultaneously to disprove the reasons they offer for that phenomenon. I’ll leave it to you to prove that resignations are down. Remember while you are at it that there are no new data on teacher attitudes towards school climate since Covid started. And that last survey is the one I quoted. Good luck.
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The Weather Channel said it snowed last night. I didn’t see it snowing. I was sleeping. So, it didn’t really snow, and the Weather Channel is systemically lying. That’s what you are dealing with, Captain.
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…I would probably avoid bringing up anything related to climate in a discussion about claims of ignoring evidence.
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“Rosie YellowstoneBound1948 • 11 hours ago
…I would probably avoid bringing up anything related to climate in a discussion about claims of ignoring evidence.”You should probably take your own advice, snow is weather.
“Weather refers to short term atmospheric conditions while climate is the weather of a specific region averaged over a long period of time”
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“You are clearly unconvinced by Natansen’s article and a thousand others, including here, about unprecedented levels of resignations.”
I never stated or suggested there was not an increase in teacher resignations. I have stated that you have shown no correlation between an increase in teacher resignations and teachers’ fear for personal safety.
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not for a lack of frantic hand waving though….
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We will either have a public education system or we will not. Right now, these in-school incident numbers say we don’t have one. If any adult thinks those numbers are acceptable he or she has lost his or her mind.
Progressives refuse to discuss it because such behavior is indefensible and hasn’t yielded to dogmatic progressive solutions. Damn them to hell.
I propose that the government control what it can and must control – student behavior in school. Whatever that takes, it must be done to ensure the teachers and kids are safe and the kids who control themselves can learn in peace. I really do not care what that takes. PBIS is failed. It never had a chance because it accepts what it accepts.
We need two levels of schools. One for kids who behave and one for kids who need to learn how to behave before they rejoin the first team.
As for the behavior of adults, last I checked that is out of the government’s control unless they commit a crime. First amendment and all that.
Teachers who feel safe in school and can teach in peace will deal with parents. They always have. I suspect many teachers quietly cheer on the parents who fight woke school authorities for the good of their kids. Teachers are parents too.
Special programs for children with disabilities? I strongly support them. I support all the extra effort we can give kids who want to learn,
But the progressive morons – I’m talking to you Albemarle County Schools – who literally tell kids they need not attend school, do homework, participate in class or pass quizzes and can still get a good grade if they somehow master the work are ruining the lives of those children.
Progressives who build large new PBIS bureaucracies and programs so that disruptive kids can stay in school to ruin other kids’ opportunities to feel safe and learn are effectively child abusers.
Clear enough?
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Nice screed. You still have not made your case that teacher fear for personal safety is what is causing your increase in teacher resignations. None of your data support that conclusion.
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Now you ARE getting to your actual views, took awhile to get here.. all that progressive bashing and moral panic, at all.
So zero tolerance for the kids for ANY offense and two separate school systems, the 2nd one being essentially an incarceration for offenders?
Let me guess. You would have voucher schools that operate like private schools and only kids who behave can attend.
If they misbehave, they get sent back to the public schools where all the bad kids are confined?
Correct?
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I do not doubt for a moment that discipline issues in the classroom have gotten worse in recent years and may be contributing to teacher flight, among other things (pay, better options, parental politicking, and yes that includes CRT). But the obsession is toxic and boring, that particular survey proved nothing (not even relevant to resignations) and the debate on all sides is inane. Just like with Covid and everything else these days, two camps line up to scream at each other, hurl taunts, and nobody has much useful to add. Let’s admit what this is — blaming THEM. The problem is THEY are getting away with too much stuff. Who is THEM, Jim 1 and Jim 2? Who is THEM that YOU think WE should worry about?
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Helpful insight Steve.
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Useless post, Sherlock.
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Them was Van Morrison, obviously. Without him, Them did not last very long.
That there is a teacher shortage is fact.
The causes of that shortage do not interest me. In some way, they are obvious: breakdown of family discipline at home; victim society which means no responsibility for one’s actions which means violent assaults are A-Okay, and turning children into activists instead of responsible citizens is rampant. Disillusioned teachers, like police, see no upside to working in a Daliesque nightmare system.
As a parent who decided to homeschool my 11-year-old when schools were shut down in March, 2020, I suggest that many teachers, like many parents, have had enough of this poisonous progressive pedagogy being promoted and taught in public schools. While their children’s and/or students’ ability to compute, read and write was being seriously and negatively affected, the child’s daily lessons on the climate crisis, trans bathrooms and the racist founding fathers were now the important subjects.
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The usual cohort here will relentlessly attack you on what you observe and perceive. Unless you have found a way to reduce them to data sets that support the progressives (and only the progressives), your experience doesn’t amount to more than a hill of beans here.
“Combative progressive comments.” Oh goody!
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“combative” = Sherlock butt-hurt?
In Virginia Beach, the current local GOP leadership, if you can call it that, does not involve themselves with local school board races like they used to when they were chaired by a competent chairman and had a competent committee. As a result of the current failed leadership they have lost control of the school board and their 8 seat majority has been lost to liberals who in a few cases ran for their positions as Republicans with the help of a member of the local Virginia Beach GOP leadership team. To top that off, the chairman of said local GOP who in his words claims he is “woke” went on a warpath against a member of his own party who is one of few conservative republicans left on the school board. Is it any wonder why this situation is playing itself out down in Virginia Beach?
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Let me add to this. In our County, Conservatives now are in the majority of the School Board. They fired the current superintendent in the firs few days after they were seated. They have set up committees to review book for sexual content and are investigating for CRT.
They will maintain their leadership for another 1 1/2 years so I am not going to be surprised if they get involved in the culture war stuff and the things that Sherlock and JAB have written about.
stay tuned.
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The parents aren’t mean, they care about their kids. Put the kids first, not the progressive agenda , and don’t be shocked by the rapid actions to sever relationships with toxic administrators who have done their best to carry out on an agenda that excludes the rights of concerned parents.
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You can care about your kids without threatening teachers, administrators and school boards.
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Excellent summary. Every word of it is true.
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Its worse there than Loudoun.
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Close but Chesapeake isn’t far behind. We must get strong leadership and we’re getting the Forward party …
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School choice has been the obvious answer to failing public schools for years. Give parents the option to get out of public schools, which have really just become a government jobs program most interested in self preservation with little interest in educating kids.
It is ironic and sad that kids who most need a strong education are trapped in horrific schools by those who claim to care about them the most.
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