Jim Bacon chats with Matt Thornhill, founder of Cozy Homes Community.

Millions of aging Americans have too much money to get government assistance but not enough to move to an upscale independent-living community. In any case, most would like to age in place in their own home. If Thornhill’s middle-market housing solution gets off the ground, it could revolutionize where and how older Americans live.

James Bacon: Hello, everyone! I’m Jim Bacon, and this is the Oinkonomics Podcast.

About 15 years ago, I worked for the Boomer Project, a research marketing firm that specialized in studying the baby boomer generation. A major preoccupation at that time was what happened at Woodstock, but what would happen when tens of millions of boomers got old and had trouble living on their own? Aside from the question of who was going to pay for their Social Security and Medicare, who is going to care for all those octogenarians and nonagenarians? What kind of quality of life would they enjoy as they became increasingly dependent upon caretakers?

Well, here I am, a boomer who reached senior citizen status several years ago. Once upon a time, anyone over 65 was considered old. But guess who’s older? My 96-year-old mother and 89-year-old mother-in-law. They require a lot of assistance. Elder care is not an abstract, sometime in the future concern like it seemed 15 years ago. My wife and I worry about our aging parents every day, and we spend a lot of time thinking about where the best place is for them to live.

That’s all prelude to me bumping into my old Boomer Project boss, Matt Thornhill, recently at a social event. Turns out, while I was scratching out a living as a journalist and blogger. Matt was converting the insights he’d gained from his market research into a real estate venture aimed mainly at aging boomers. Although, it probably won’t be too long before it appeals to Gen Xers, too. As founder and CEO of Cozy Home Community. Matt is developing a very specialized type of housing for communities of aging middle-income boomers.

Welcome to the Oinkonomics Podcast, Matt. Or should I just say, OK, Boomer!

Matt Thornhill: Hey, how you doing, Jim?

Bacon: Just great. So, set the scene for us. How many boomers are there? What kinds of trends are we seeing for how long they’re living and how long they can live independently? And what kind of challenges do we face as a society, helping them cope with advancing age and infirmity?

Thornhill: Well, the short answer is there are about 70 million boomers still with us, but I’ve actually stopped talking about boomers generationally and really just talk about older adults in general. Because you’re right, the Gen Xers are coming. Next year, the oldest Gen Xers will be 60. And next year, the oldest boomers will be 80. And there’s this whole segment of the market that’s just gonna continue for forever. In fact, you probably remember, Jim, back 15 years ago, the fun statistic we like to tell people was, every day, 10,000 boomers turn 65. It had started in 2011. Well, it’s still going on, but guess what? It doesn’t end when the last boomer turns 65. Every day from now till 2060, according to the Census Bureau, 10,000 people are turning 65. There’s no drop-off at the end of boomers.

Now, you may say, come on, Matt, I know the Gen Xers are a smaller generation. Not on a year-by-year basis, it was a smaller time frame. They’re from 1965 to, like, 1980. It’s only 15 years, and boomers are 18 years. So, it’s a little bit of a miscommunication to imply that the boomers are the pig in the python. They’re just the start of this long slog we have ahead of us of more older adults than we’ve ever had before. The number of people over 80 is expected to double in the next 15 years. By 2040, we’ll have twice as many people over 80 as we have today. We’re gonna have a lot of issues facing with how we house and take care of older adults, especially when they get to the stage of life where they do need some supportive services, like your mother and your mother-in-law. Maybe not you and me now in our mid-60s or 70, but come 85 or 90, we’re gonna have to figure out how to take care of these folks.

Bacon: In past generations, it was common for multiple generations to live under one roof. You see that still among immigrants, and occasionally among native-born Americans, although not so often. And I wonder, why is that? There’s multiple reasons it could be. Is it because American families are fragmented and scattered across the country? Are there more people childless? Has it just been a matter of the government providing benefits for institutionalizing old people, so we use the benefits? I mean, what’s the cause?

Thornhill: I don’t know if there’s a simple explanation, but my friend Ken Dykewald, who’s been tracking this age wave for almost 50 years likes to provide the long-term perspective, which is, for about the last 10,000 years, humans of all ages have lived together in families, and it’s been intergenerational. It was really thanks to the invention of Social Security, and then in the late 1950s, the invention of retirement communities by a guy named Del Webb, who said, hey, when you reach 65, come retire and live in Sun City, out in Arizona where you can play shuffleboard and live together in recreational time. And that’s when we started segregating older adults.

We’d always had homes for widows and orphans, but those homes for widows and orphans were typically formed by faith-based organizations, evolved and became retirement communities, and then became continuing care retirement communities, and then life plan communities, all sorts of different names they give it. But a place to segment out these oldest of older adults, where they can live in residential care communities. The sector does not like to refer to senior living as institutionalized care. It’s not really an institution, it’s a community. Sometimes you could call a memory care unit a facility, but mostly they try to be a community where you can live and have access, easy access to care.

Part of the reason that we have it today, especially, and what boomers face as a generation, is because they’re fragmented [and] they didn’t have as many children. Remember, the Silent Generations are the ones that begat the boomers. They had, on average, 4 kids. The boomers have had, on average, 2.

The boomer generation today, they’re around age 60 to almost 80, as I said. Currently, 40% of them don’t have a spouse or partner. Forty percent of boomers — so it’s about 28 million people. They never married, they’re divorced, they’re widowed, whatever it may be. Go back 20 years, the silent generation at this same stage of life, it was about 25% who didn’t have a spouse or partner. But that equated to about 6 million people. Today, it’s 28 million people. So, that’s a big issue, because that means we’ve got 28 million boomers who don’t have a second income today, aren’t going to have a second Social Security check in the house, and don’t have a caregiver in the house to begin with. So, we’re going to have a lot of older adults who are looking for how do navigate this next stage of life before they get to old, old age, which is probably 80, 85 — maybe 85 is really the elder stage of life. How do I navigate from here to there, and then what happens when I get to 85? And I don’t have the answer for that, but that’s an issue that we’re facing as a country.

Bacon: At least you’ve got maybe a piece of the answer, at least for some. So, some Americans are finding creative ways to avoid ending up in a… we won’t call it an institution, we’ll call it an extended retirement community. One of the things I recall from the days of the Boomer Project was the existence of a phenomenon called NORCs. Naturally Occurring Retirement Communities. I don’t think they’re terribly widespread, but maybe they’re increasing in number. Tell us about those, and how they might have provided some inspiration for your business plan.

Thornhill: NORCs came about from the same reason that what we’re seeing today in housing options for senior living. Most people don’t want to have to give up their current home to go live somewhere else in a congregate setting with people they don’t know. Their home is more than just their home, it’s the story of their life. It’s their familiar things, it’s their routines, it’s all the stuff that they have control over day in and day out. So, survey after survey, you’ll see — even today, they survey boomers and say, where do you plan to live in old age – and they say, I’m going to age in place, I’m gonna stay in my home.

So, people were saying that 15 years ago, and the first NORC that ever developed, a naturally occurring retirement community, was up in Beacon Hill in Boston, when a bunch of neighbors realized that they were all getting older, and they said, hey, why don’t we just take care of each other? As we go through this next stage of life, there’s enough of us living here in this Beacon Hill neighborhood, maybe in one building, two buildings, three buildings, four buildings. Let’s connect each other together. We’ll each put in 100 bucks a month. And we can hire a full-time care navigator for us to help us navigate this stage of life. And that’s really what happened. And there have been others that have developed around the country.

I wouldn’t say that they are quite as widespread as I would have hoped they would have gotten in 15 years, but they’re trying to deal with this issue, which is folks want to grow older in their home. And they’re trying to figure out how to do it so that they don’t have to go to a high-end, expensive retirement community, senior living, or get rid of all their money and rely on Medicaid to fund them to live in government affordable housing for seniors.

Bacon: So, we’ve given the background. Let’s jump to your business idea, which at least in theory, sounds enormously promising. Give us a little bit about the real estate economics of retirement. You’ve identified the market as middle-income Americans for your product. We’ll get to describing your idea in just a moment, but why have you targeted middle-income Americans?

Thornhill: What happened, Jim, is I was still running the Boomer Project until the late teens, and along the way, really in the mid to late teens, the senior living communities, or senior living sector, reached out to us and said, hey, Boomers are going to be our next consumer, come help us understand them. So, and we said, no, they’re not. They’re not interested in your product. They want to grow old in their home. They’re going no, no, no. We’ve got to get ready for them. Some said come help us understand them. So, we went and helped them, and they paid us good money, and that was lovely.

But along the way, I learned that there’s some unspoken truths about senior living. Those life plan communities have independent living, then it goes to assisted living, skilled nursing and rehab if you fall and break a hip or something like that, and then hospice, and along the way, if you need memory care, we’ve got that covered. You give us all of your money from your house, and you pay us an exorbitant fee each month, and we’ll guarantee that we’ll take care of you the rest of your life. That was the design, and they’re targeted for 65 and older.

The unspoken truth is that the average age of people moving into independent living is 82 years old. People don’t move there because they want to, typically. They move there when they have to — when somebody said, we gotta take the car keys away, or you really can’t stay in the house, it’s not safe for you to be alone in the house anymore or taking care of the house. It’s all kind of driven by a need, and people would go there… In this space, they talk about ability to manage your activities of daily living: dressing yourself, feeding yourself, bathing, showering, medication management. And most people who move into independent living already need assisted living. And folks in assisted living really need skilled nursing. The number of people in assisted living who bring in outside caregivers every day.

So, the system is a little flawed right now. And the high-end market only addresses about 5-10% of the total number of older adults. In fact, the total number of heads in beds in senior living from the affordable housing, the HUD housing at the poor end to the very high end, is about 3 million heads in beds. How many people are there who are 80 and older? It’s like, you know, 14, 15 million. So, there’s a lot of folks who are still aging in place, and that’s what they’re going to do. I had this idea, almost 10 years ago, that we should build a community that people want to move into, and maybe they move into it in their 60s, and they go through the stage of life together, intentionally in community.

I think you said it to me the other day, that your wife and her friends have said, you know, we’re gonna outlive our husbands, we need to find a place to live together once we’re all done. And I actually had friends telling me that, and I’m thinking, well, why didn’t somebody build that for them? So, I came up with this idea of, let’s build intentional community… let’s build small homes, not tiny homes. In fact, we call them cozy homes. They’re one-floor living, two-bedroom, two bath, 1,200-square-foot homes. Let’s put 10 or 12 of them in a circle, put a common house in the middle where people can gather, and then put multiple clusters — 10 or 12 — together, and create a community where you’ve got maybe 100 older adults living together in community. And you arrange the home so they all face the center and face each other, and you help the neighbors get to know one another, and you go through the stage of life living in community.

That was the idea, and the reason it ended up being middle market is… in 2019 an organization that tracks what’s going on in senior living did a study and said that by 2030, approximately 10 million boomers around their mid-70s are going to need to live in some sort of senior-supportive housing. And I thought, wait, that’s interesting. You’re saying that the unmet need in 10 years is going to be about 10 million people? And that’s people who don’t qualify for the affordable housing — they make $1 too much — and they can’t afford the high-end stuff. So, this is the unmet need of 10 million. And I said, hold on a second. There’s only 3 million people who are using these products today. The unmet need is 3 times larger. We ought to be building like crazy to accommodate those folks. And we’re not.

Let’s do the first community to be a product that can be rented or acquired by middle-income folks. People that are making anywhere from maybe $30,000 to $100,000 a year in annual income, combined annual income. That was the core idea behind the concept. Let’s figure out how to do this now.

Bacon: Describe what a cozy home cluster looks like. Each person has, say, a dwelling that’s maybe 1,200 square feet in it? And there’s a ring of these around a common area. What features are in the apartment, and what features are in the common area? Can residents cook together in the common area, or do they just, like, play mahjong together? What goes on, in your mind?

Thornhill: Yeah, that’s a good question. The homes are complete homes, full bedrooms, full baths, full kitchen. They’re just 1,200 square feet. And the intention is, let’s create a house, a community where I can sell my house and not feel like I’m moving into an apartment building or a condo. I don’t want to live behind a door down a hall, I want to live in my own little house. And the houses are close together, they’re clustered in such a way that you see your neighbors when you come and go, and so forth. The common house is just meant as a meeting space and a place if you do want to play mahjong, or if you do want to get together and do woodworking, or you want to share a meal on Tuesday night. It’s got a little kitchen in it, and bathrooms and such, but it’s meant to be flexible space for that cluster to be able to use. And the intention is that — at least the first community that we’re building, I’ll just go ahead and talk specifics — we’re going to have 4 clusters with about 13 or 14 houses in each of the clusters. So, a total of about 45 houses, about 90 people potentially living there. That’s basically the idea. It’s appealing enough, and quite honestly, our marketing is going to be, don’t come here if you want to be all left alone and be a hermit through the stage of life. Come here if you want to go through the stage of life in community with people that we will help you get to know. As part of our secret sauce.

Bacon: Presumably, the way you’ve got it set up is you’ll get a group of people, at least in one particular cluster, who know each other from the very beginning. It’ll come with comradeship and community baked in. But there’s other elements. I mean, these people do need some assistance. They are going to help care for one another, look after one another. But you bring other resources to bear because they are at an age, presumably, where they really can’t do it all by themselves. Will some of these retirement communities have community-events planners, people who plan events and things to do? Is there going to be anything like that? You also talked about, wrapping around various social services. You’ll have economies of scale with a group of, like, of 100 people living in the same development that you wouldn’t have if they’re all living in their own homes. What are some of these kind of value adds that you would bring to bear?

Thornhill: Good question. The idea behind Cozy Homes was, let’s think about how people are going to live and interact in 2030, because I developed it in, like, 2016, 2018. And I knew, for example, that there would come a time when older adults would be perfectly fine getting their groceries delivered, and doing telemedicine, and having their prescriptions delivered. I didn’t know that COVID was going to come along and accelerate those things to happen, not over a course of years, but over a course of months. But I knew that eventually that we would kind of lean into having resources come to us.

The typical senior living operator today tries to provide all those things within their four walls and within their parcel boundaries. And I looked and said, no, listen, all of the money is going to be invested in helping people figure out how to age in place. Literally today, there are billions of dollars being invested by Humana buying a home care company, CVS buying a home care company. There’s billions being invested in AgeTech technology that monitors your health at home. Hospitals are developing what they call hospital-at-home programs, so you don’t have to come and stay at the hospital. They can set up a hospital bed and monitoring at your house. And have the telemedicine kind of come in and check on you. It’s all coming. All the money is being spent at the home.

So, that’s been happening over the last 5 years. This is going to continue, it’s accelerating, because they all saw the same surveys that said everybody wants to stay in their home as long as they can. What I’ve done is created a community where I can aggregate enough seniors together that now I can go out and negotiate with those service providers in the region around me to say, okay, my residents are going to need a visiting nurse. But instead of the visiting nurse going out to individual homes and getting maybe 5 visits in a day with a 20-minute drive in between, come to my community, and they can get in 12 visits a day, and just walk from home to home. And instead of charging the full hour they can charge the 20 minutes it takes for visiting each home, and they have no commute time in between, so I can offer it more cost-affordably to my residents. The other thing is, is that I know that one of the things that, again, senior living tends to be a hospitality model. Come here and we will take care of you. You don’t have to lift a finger. Well, older adults are more than capable of taking care of themselves, and can lift a finger. So, why don’t we activate that?

Part of the deal of living in our community is you have to agree to help your neighbor. That comes through a process we’re gonna have where every month you have to donate 10 hours a month back to the community. And it can be to the broader community, like, I’m going to take care of all of the event planning for social activities, because that’s how I’m wired. Or I’m going to be the one who overlooks the landscaping, and I’ll hire the landscaping company and oversee them, and supervise them. So, I don’t need to hire staff, I’ve got staff. They’re called the members of the community.

That commitment to helping your neighbors is based on research that’s been done, and actually the NORC people did research like this that said neighbors are more than willing to help each other, but people who need help are reluctant to ask. So, if you set up a time bank where I’ve got to make deposits and you’re going to make withdrawals, and I use an app that says, okay, I’m really good at cooking and landscaping, those are things I’d love to help people with. So, that kind of matchmaking and that kind of thing is the tool we’re going to use to help people give back to the community and help… You don’t have to come over and help me take a shower, we’re not looking for that, but we’re looking for, hey, I’m going to the store, can I pick something up for you? And that counts as some of me giving back my time to the community, helping my neighbor.

The other thing we’re going to do to facilitate this, we call it kinship. We’re going to try to create kinship and ultimately friendship among the members as they move in. When you move into the neighborhood, one of the first things we’re going to have you do is complete, essentially, a backstory profile. And it’s not the nuts and bolts of, you know, where’d you grow up and how many brothers and sisters you have, but more kind of three-dimensional pictures of who you are. Not your health status, not your political status, we don’t care about that, but just your backstory. And from that interview, we’re going to collect it, we’re going to use AI to then generate, essentially, a magazine-like profile of the person. That then gets stored with all the other profiles. And you get matched up with other folks who have overlapping with you. Where are the Venn diagrams between me and you, and where’s the overlap? And it then facilitates so that the day you move in, you will know, in this cluster of 12, there are 6 people in here who love quilting. And here’s who they are, and here’s where they live. So, when you move into a neighborhood, you get to know your neighbors generally over time, and it just takes time and conversations. What we’re going to do is shortcut that by collecting these backstories and sharing them among the neighbors, so that I know almost immediately that you’re not a techno person and I am. We may not have an overlapping Venn diagram there, but we at least now know something about each other and can have a conversation that starts more than just, hi, I’m Matt, and hi, I’m Jim.

Bacon: Obviously, this is more than just a real estate development. Let’s talk about the business model and what the enterprise looks like. We’ve talked about what the communities look like and how they work, but how about your enterprise, which hopefully will be successful and can be replicable. Are people going to buy into these like condos? Are you going to rent to them? Are you going to have a staff person in residence who’s gonna, like, keep everything organized and all the wheels running? How’s that gonna work?

Thornhill: You earlier asked about the economics, so let me back up and say, first off, as you know, Jim, I’m not a real estate developer. I’m not even playing one on TV. I’m doing it on podcasts, but not on TV. But

I’ve partnered with people that know real estate, or have done senior housing and senior living, and kind of know how this works. The key for me is I’m essentially the developer in the sense that I’m bringing the buildings — because I didn’t share this with you — the houses are actually modular-built homes. They’re being built inside factories in sections, and then delivered on-site and put together. They’re stick-built homes, just like you would build on-site, but they’re built indoors, where you have the same crew doing the same thing on every house, on every unit. So, as they say in the modular industry, they come out glued, screwed, and trued. And they get put on site.

In order to do this, so when I came up with the concept, I was doing all this work in the senior living space, helping them understand how boomers were coming, and I would share this concept with current senior living operators around the country and say, what do you think of this? And they go, we love it! This is a great idea. And to be honest with you, Jim, one of the reasons they love it is a lot of these are these non-profit providers who have gone so far upstream with the $300,000 to $500,000 entry fee and the $6,000 to $9,000 a month rental that they may have started as homes for widows and orphans, but there’s no church secretary who can retire and move into one of these communities.

They’re still non-profit. And they’re still getting away with not paying property taxes. And the municipalities around the country are like, okay, hold on a second, you’re putting up a $70 million addition? Explain to me your business model of how you’re nonprofit and giving back to the community, and they’ll go, well, we have a benevolent fund. If any of our residents who have made the commitment run out of money, we’ve got a foundation that will pay for them to stay here until they pass. Oh, how many are on that program? Well, out of 700 residents, we currently have 7 who are on it. Okay, shame on you.

I’m not gonna shame the category. The category is the category, and the segment’s the segment, and they’ve figured out a way to do it. But when I shared this concept for a middle-income solution, with all the pressure they’re getting in the sector to say, there’s 10 million people who are going to need housing, they all jumped up and said, I’ve got land, come build it here. So, I said, that’s great! When I opened my doors on January 2020, I had 8 different communities around the country who said, when you’re ready, come talk to our board, we need to build one of these communities. Because, Jim, they wanted to check the box to say, look, we’ve got a middle-market solution. Great! I’m happy, because I want to prove that this concept’s going to work, and we can do it all over the country, everywhere. And it was fabulous on… until about March 16th or so? 2020? Things just got a little wonky then. Understandably, they had to turn their attention into realizing that they were not just residential housing, they were to take care of seniors and to keep them alive during COVID. So, we had a two-year COVID fog that we had to deal with, and we’ve had a variety of projects that started and stopped. Interest rates went up during those two years, construction material costs went up, and everybody in senior living said, we’re going to take a breath, we can’t make these work financially for what we’re trying to do. Especially a product like mine, which is a horizontal product. It’s not, I need 2 acres and I’m going up 10 floors, I need 10 acres, and there’s no floors. There’s one floor.

Long story short, I’ve actually had my first community being built in western Pennsylvania on land that’s owned by the Slippery Rock University Foundation, which is the non-profit, stand-alone foundation to support this public university in western Pennsylvania. It’s about 20 miles outside of Pittsburgh. It’s got 8,000 students, grad programs and such, in this little town called Slippery Rock. The land is adjacent to the university. It’s actually about 100 yards from the land to the student center at the university. And they were given this land 25 years ago and have been trying to develop it and turn it into income-producing land to have scholarships. And along the way, maybe 10 years ago, they had the idea of, hey, why don’t we build senior living here? We can maybe get alumni and maybe retiring professors and people in the community can come live here adjacent to the campus. And they reached out to a local nonprofit provider up in western Pennsylvania called Presbyterian Senior Care Network, which operates 60 communities, from affordable housing all the way up to a high-end life-plan community next to Oakmont Country Club in Pittsburgh. And they reached out to their CEO and said, hey, come build a senior housing here. And he says, I don’t know about that. I’ve got to figure out the right product. Well, I gave a speech in San Diego about the cozy home concept, and Jim, the CEO of this non-profit, came up and met me and said, would you be interested in building this in Pennsylvania? And I said, I’ll build it wherever I can find land.

So, jump ahead 2 years, 3 years, we have got everything lined up to build a community on this piece of property. We’ve got all the financing lined up, all the construction stuff figured out, everything’s ready to rock and roll. It’s just currently on hold. We have not broken ground yet. The two partners in this… the Foundation’s gonna own a majority share, and then the senior living operator’s gonna have a minority share, and they’re going to be the the property manager, if you will. They’ll collect the rent and manage that, and it’ll be part of their portfolio. The reason it’s good to partner with them is that they have memory care units and skilled nursing and such, that if somebody falls and breaks a hip who lives in our community, they can go to one of the other communities that this company owns to get services. We’re not going to abandon people.

Anyway, it hit a little hiccup when Orange Man came on charge this past spring, and started talking tariffs, and what is it going to mean for lumber products from Canada, et cetera, et cetera. Because they’re all foundations and nonprofits with fiduciary responsibility, they are uber conservative. They’re like, let’s wait and see if interest rates come down, let’s see if the uncertainty that got stirred up when Trump took office settles down. We are currently in that holding pattern, but we’re coming out of it here pretty soon. Hopefully in 2026, we’ll break ground and get the first homes up and prove the damn concept works.

Bacon: That’s fabulous. I hope it happens soon. I wish you the best of luck in that. Do you have any other projects in the developmental pipeline? In particular, is there any chance of anything like this coming to Virginia?

Thornhill: Yeah, we’d like to. We’ve had conversations with some operators in Virginia who, again, said, Matt, we’ve got land, let’s figure out how to do it. All of them, Jim, to be honest with you, are at the point where it’s like, can you prove the concept to us before we put our toe in the water? … I didn’t know this, but the banks, they’re not going to lend you money unless they know you can fill the place. They’re not going to lend you money to build it and assume that you’re going to be able to fill it unless you do a market study. So, the operator up in Pennsylvania did a market study where they looked at the demographics around 20 miles around the site and looked at the ages and incomes, and what are the other housing options they have, and what percentage am I going to move, and etc, etc. And you boil it down, how many people could we build for and the bank would say yes, and the answer is we could build 260 units, and the bank would say yes.

We’re building less than 60. So, we’re not worried about filling it. So, we will be able to prove the concept, we just gotta get it built.

Getting from the hesitation to go to getting it up and running and proof of concept, we’re a year or two off. And then I think all these other guys that we’ve got lined up saying, show me, show me, show me, we’ll be able to show them, look, it works. We’ve built it, we got it up and running, we’ve got it partially full, if not completely full. Now let’s get going on your property.

Bacon: Well, I wish you the best of luck. The beauty of the American capitalist system is it allows people who are visionaries like you to put their ideas into action. Sometimes those visions are wildly successful, sometimes they fail, but you don’t know until you try. It sounds like you’ve thought things through really, really well, and I can tell you what, I gotta tell my wife, Laura, about this, and I think that she and her girlfriends are almost looking forward to the day when the husbands kick off, and they can all spend time hanging out together, and cooking, and talking, and yakking, and watching movies, and doing all the things that they do. I think I could really see the appeal, I really can.

Thanks for joining us, and best of luck in your business venture, and when you finally do, getting around to building a cozy home project in Virginia, make sure you let us know.

Thornhill: We certainly will, Jim. Thanks for giving me the time.