On a Slippery Slope: The State Pension Fund

I wouldn’t want to be Gov. Tim Kaine at the moment. He has the unenviable job of chopping $1.3 billion out of next year’s budget. There are no easy choices, and there is no way to avoid making a lot of people unhappy.
Kaine summarized his major initiatives in a press release you can read here. Most of the savings look real, and I applaud him for making them. But I would draw attention to one very dangerous item on Kaine’s list of “savings”: He proposes cutting Virginia Retirement System contributions by $104 million. Reducing payments to an already under-funded pension plan puts Virginia on a very slippery slope that may prove impossible to climb back up.
A week before Kaine announced his budget cuts, the VRS issued a press release announcing that the retirement fund had experienced a -21.1% return on its investments in FY 2009. What the VRS did not release at the time was the extent to which its two funds, which cover state employees and public school teachers, were actuarially deficient. Indeed, that seems to be information that VRS is not eager for the public to know about, for you cannot find its most recent actuarial valuation, performced in 2007, anywhere on its web site.
However, the Virginia Government Finance Officers Association did post a 2007 presentation by Barry Faison, CFO of the VRS, entitled, “Virginia Retirement System — Where We Are and Where We’re Going” online. Slide 15 (from which the graph above is taken) and Slide 16 show the funding status for the State Employee and the Teacher retirement funds.
Once upon a time, as recently as 2001, according to Faison’s data, both were fully funded. No longer. As of FY 2007, state employees were only 83% funded and school teachers 76%. Since then, the VRS has experienced a -4.4% return in FY 2008 and a -21.1% return in FY 2009. Clearly, the VRS is significantly more under-funded now than it was in 2007. Perhaps it is time for another valuation.
Kaine’s press release implies that there’s no problem. States the press release: “Contribution rates for the Commonwealth and its employees will be changed in July at the beginning of the next biennium to adequately fund the long-term needs of the retirement system.”
Oh, really? Presumably, that means Virginia will be increasing payments in the next biennium — and/or state employees will see bigger deductions from their paychecks. How big will the changes be? And will they really restore the financial integrity of the VRS? I expect this issue will get a lot of attention in the upcoming session of the General Assembly.
Update: Jim Nolan with the Times-Dispatch reports today that Kaine is, in fact, considering the idea of making the state’s 100,000 employees contribute more to the VRS. Currently, the state contributes 6.26% of each worker’s salary into the VRS; the percentage varies with each budget cycle. Virginia is one of only five states that do not require workers to contribute. Writes Nolan:

Robert P. Schultze, director of the VRS, said preliminary internal estimates suggest the system will need increased contributions of 4 percent to 6 percent of the current payroll to fund pension liabilities over the next 20 to 30 years that maintain the current level of benefits for future retirees.


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33 responses to “On a Slippery Slope: The State Pension Fund”

  1. Anonymous Avatar

    This shows clearly what is wrong with government – federal, state and local. First, there is an obligation to fund the pension fund. It should be done. But instead of doing the basics, we expand existing programs and invent new ones and then short-change existing obligations.

    Second, it's way past time to convert Virginia's retirement system to a defined contribution plan instead of a defined benefit plan. Many companies and the federal government have done this successfully. Why can't Virginia?

    Third, how many subsidies to businesses are embedded in Virginia's budget (e.g., $200 million for overweight trucks)? Whether one is conservative or liberal, we should be able to agree that taxpayers should not be subsidizing one business over another.

    Fourth, adopt zero-based budgeting.

    Fifth, require any person being compensated making any request to any elected official or public employee for funding, increased funding, etc. to reduce that request to writing and the government should post it to the Internet.

    Sixth, whenever both Bill Lecos and Fred Hiatt make the same proposal or recommendation, do the opposite. Their agreement is usually a recipe for another taxpayer disaster. (I've successfully persuaded a friend of mine who is an elected official and a good Democrat to follow this rule of thumb.)

    TMT

  2. well.. we're talking about State Troopers, teachers, and many other workers whose compensation levels are on the lower end and they stay in the jobs because o the benefits including the pension benefits.

    Of course, it's fair to say that Government is getting to be the last place where someone can actually plan to spend their entire 20-30 career at.

    maybe that is an obsolete concept.

    we know it did not work for folks like GM.

  3. Anonymous Avatar

    Governments can't seem to keep their promises, what else is new?

    RH

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  5. Anonymous Avatar

    Both my wife and I are state employees, and I suppose it doesn't surprise that this is of particular concern to us.

    We've endured a number of difficult issues – but I understand I'm not special. The entire world is suffering in many ways.

    I've been blessed to avoid layoffs so far; however, my wife is still facing the next round of VDOT layoffs.

    We learned last week that furlough days were on the way.

    Most objectionable, by far, though is this discussion of reduced retirement benefits.

    I am ignorant – and wonder out loud – how this is even legal; however, I trust the law is written to allow it…….. (illegal taxing authorities approved by the GA's office, aside)

    Stipulating legal ability, it's still immoral. It's the epitome of balancing the budget on the backs of state employees without a voice. We still have an enormous budget, full of tax exemptions and new special programs (pre-K). Instead of dealing with out of control spending, we keep those things and push the pain where it's politically managable. State employees are the easiest of targets.

    At our job, we continue to rush to privatize and spend much MORE for much less service (think interstate road maintenance, VITA, etc.) All politicians –R's and D's — are equally culpable for this. We're required to set aside an enormous amount of business (over 40%) for Small, Women, and Minority owned businesses — paying much higher premiums to toe the line on these dishonest quotas from the governor's office.

    It's plainly demoralizing for 15-30 year veterans to hear that the sacrifices they accepted in salary while they banked on their state retirement benefits are now going for naught as well.

  6. I'd not be surprised that it would take action by the GA to codify changes to the pension.

    It was pointed out that Va is but one of 4 states that don't require employee contributions.

    VDOT funding is separate from the rest of state funding in that it's primary source of funding is through gas tax, new car taxes, 1/2% of the sales tax and Fed pass through funds.

    the draw downs at VDOT are necessary because the sources of it's funds have decreased.

    I don't envy Kaine and I have sympathy for the State employees also.

    For Kaine to be talking about changes to the pension – he must be looking at some longer trendline data. In other words – he's apparently dealing with a structural budget problem that extends beyond this cycle to downstream out years.

    When I would deduce from that – that he is seeing some data that indicates that the current revenue shortfalls are not just for a year or so but are expected to continue.

    If that is true – then we're going to see cuts in education and preK might be on the chopping block although I've read that higher education is also.

    Finally – Kaine has two paths here. He can cut or he can raise taxes and some other states have decided to also raise taxes (and that might happen here also).

    But I give Kaine credit because for a supposedly tax&spend guy, he did not go to the tax increase first…

    he is doing a yeomans job of trying to slim down government to get it to live within it's means.

    what a concept. used to be this was the purview of our fiscal conservatives before they were bitten by the right-wing ideologue Dracula.

    I'm sorry that state employees are going to get hurt especially the ones who are actually in the second half of their careers but the private job market is so terrible right now.. that actually keeping one's job is is a plus for many.

    I'm deeply worried how out economy recovers and at the end of the day – the state government jobs ultimately will depend on the economy recovering.

    I fear also for Virginia because the next Gov will be taking over a ship in the middle of trying to steer through dangerous waters and there will be no time for foolishness that we sometimes see.

  7. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Anonymous 7:02, A small point of information: My reading of the T-D story and the governor's press release has good news and bad news for you. The good news is that the governor is NOT contemplating making any benefit cuts to your pension. The bad news is that he will deduct a "contribution" from your paycheck to cover the actuarial deficit.

    If you're lucky, the contribution will be phased in over three or four years so that it will be offset (maybe) by Cost of Living increases to your salary.

  8. Anonymous Avatar

    "Structural deficits" Sorry, that doesn't fly. Mark Warner complained a few years ago about Virginia's structural deficit. I attended a meeting where he presented his best case — and, as we all know, was able to persuade a sufficient number of senators and delegates that he was correct. Virginia passed the largest tax increase in state history to fix the structural deficit.

    To Warner's credit, he also did some real cutting in agencies and the number of state employees.

    To Kaine's discredit, he allowed Warner's fiscal controls to lapse; the number of employees jumped. That doesn't happen after a private company downsizes.

    To everyone in Richmond's discredit, GOP and Dems alike, they continue to kowtow to special interest lobbyists. Witness the $200 million plus subsidy to overweight trucks and the refusal to adopt adequate public facilities laws that would stop the infrastructure mess from getting worse.

    Problems, yes. But I don't buy the structural deficit argument again.

    TMT

  9. structural in the sense that the more recent loss of revenues are not going to rebound anytime soon.

    how many more state employees do we have now since Warner did cuts and what agencies are they in?

    let's be specific about the complaints against Kaine.

    Compared to the dumb stuff that Gilmore did – stuff that caused the structural deficits that others had to fix….

    Essentially what Gilmore did was to have the State agree to pick up the tab for the local taxes that he took away from the localities.

    this not only hurt places like Fairfax but it ballooned the state responsibities… increased the pressure on the state budget by putting another huge budget item in the mix to compete with transportation and education.

    That one act is still reverberating through the Va budget… now two Govs past him.

    that was not fiscal responsibility…IMHO.. but fiscal chicanery… the stuff we usually accuse the Dems of.

    If Gilmore had left that issue alone, Va would be much better off than we are right now.

    What Gilmore did not do that he should have done – is he could have supported a law that would have required localities like Fairfax to dedicate taxes on autos to – transportation – instead of having the state pay for it.

    Kaine did NONE of this kind of skulduggery as far as I can tell but I'm open to other views on it.

    All I'm saying here – is to use a single standard to judge our Govs.. and I think Mr. Kaine is well between the lines..

  10. Anonymous Avatar

    James Bacon states:

    If you're lucky, the contribution will be phased in over three or four years so that it will be offset (maybe) by Cost of Living increases to your salary.

    What cost of living raise??? We as state employees have been told that the raise we were "supposed" to get last year has been put on hold to at least the 2012 budget.

    That is usually one of the first things to go in a so-called "budget crisis".

    So, if the make us contribute, it will be reducing our take home pay yet again.

  11. Someday I'll undrstand the negatative view of Jim Gilmore. But that day will not be today. Gilmore campaigned on a pledge to eliminate the car tax. That was what his pre-election bumper sticker said. That's what he said. He beat Don Beyer in the election 56% to 43% (i.e. a rout). Once elected he did just what he said he'd do.

    Instead of using the recession of 2001 as an excuse he kept going with the tax cut. He addressed the budget shortfal by cutting everybody's budget.

    During his term Virginia's test scores increased. He dropped the cost of higher education. He instituted Martin Luther King Day instead of that riduculous Lee – Jackson – King day.

    Compare that to Mark Warner who public claimed (over and over agian) that he would not raise taxes. He then almost immediately flip flopped and raised taxes.

  12. Anonymous Avatar

    Larry – Data from the Department of Human Resource Management.

    Gilmore June 2001 103,426 FTE (full-time equivalent)

    Warner June 2004 (right after he won his tax increases) 97,614 FTE

    Kaine June 2009 (latest available) 103,248 FTE.

    I don't think that Kaine is Satan or that Gilmore or Warner are angels. I agree with some things each did and disagree with others. Kaine just allowed Warner's job cuts to be undone. I think that's a big negative, just like I think his work for the 527 traffic studies is a very big positive.

    The car tax cut was the best thing that ever happened to Fairfax County since I've lived here. It took Fairfax County money that would have been doled out to RoVA and returned some of it to Fairfax County. It made the "Giveaway Pie" smaller. I like that.

    I think Larry makes a reasonable point — to a point — about dedicating the car tax to transportation. It's quite logical, but it also plays into the hand of the bid developers — the guys that want ordinary taxpayers to fund their profits.

    If Virginia had an adequate public facilities law that was used; a system of cost-based transportation impact fees or proffer targets; and regularly used special tax districts like the Route 28 district and not like the Tysons Corner district, I would probably agree to suck it up and see the car tax go to transportation.

    But we don't have APF, or cost-based fees, but we do have special deals for the biggies. So I'd rather have the money in my pocket and see a few things not built on my dime.

    TMT

    P.S. While I do like some things Mark Warner did, I agree with Groveton that Warner was very dishonest on tax increases. He's better than that.

  13. Groveton – Gilmore did not get rid of the car tax.

    The "small government" Republican put the State of Virginia in charge of funding localities directly from the general fund.

    He removed accountability from the localities on the car tax because he did not require that taxes on cars be dedicated to local transportation.

    Now.. the localities are saying that the state is not funding transportation..

    He screwed up the whole concept of local accountability and transparency with a big government solution.. that has give Virginia a structural budget problem – i.e. in lean times how to fund transportation, education and the rebate to localities for the car tax.

    If the small G Gilmore really wanted to reduce BIG government, he should have not made big government responsible for funding the car tax – which was being misused at the local level to start with.

    All these localities go whining to the state saying that the State is not funding transportation when in reality they were not funding transportation when they had the opportunity to do so and now..they still have that opportunity but they evade it.

    Unless you can demonstrate how Gilmore actually increased the test scores.. that's not an honest claim.

    How did he drop the cost of higher education?

    did he cut education funds.

    and King day? bahahahaha

    I guess you would have given him credit for renaming the state fish also ..right?

    Here's the test for you Groveton.

    Would you put Gilmore back in right now if you could?

  14. re: Kaine increased state employees…

    fair criticism..

    do you know what agencies gained ?

    VDOT did not..

    about 4000 employees…

    the biggest agency in Va right now is the Dept of Corrections.

    If that was the lions share of the increase – then it's not fair criticism of Kaine unless you'd prefer that he turn lose some of the increased prisoner population.

    I'm just looking for fair judgments … here..

    some things the Gov does not have much control over.

    If it can be shown that Kaine Willingly increased agencies when he did have discretion that would be a fair criticism.

  15. TMT – if you have a link…can you share it so I can see if I can find out where the differences are in the total number of employees?

    thanks.

    p.s. yes Warner did a dishonest thing… agree.. but why did he raise taxes?

    what lavish stuff did we spend it on?

    didn't he have to raise taxes to fund the car tax?

    educate me.

  16. "didn't he have to raise taxes to fund the car tax?".

    How do you fund a tax? I assume that you mean Warner raised taxes to make for the revenue lost when the car tax was phased out. The problem is that Warner knew (or should have known) the status of Virginia's budget when he was campaigning on his "I won't raise your taxes" platform.

    Then he raised the taxes. Then he claimed it was for education. BS. In many cases the taxes paid "for education" were used as a subsidy for localities to lower their local contribution to their own schools. And not just poor areas.

    Gilmore said he'd kill the car tax. Seems to me that he kept his word.

    I wasn't that interested in Virginia politics back when Gilmore was governor. So, maybe I am not getting this right. But it seems to me that Gilmore did what he said he'd do and Warner lied in order to get elected.

    I prefer people who do what they say they are going to do -evern when I don't like what they are doing. Like Obama. Whether you like him or not – he's pretty much doing what he said he'd do. It's like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs for politicians. The bottom rung is honesty. Without that, you can't get any further up the pyramid. Gilmore was honest. Warner was not. Obama is honest.

    We'll worry about competence once we have honesty working on a routine basis.

  17. Groveton – I would submit that what Gilmore actually did is not just as disingenuous as what Warner did.

    Warner made a promise before he knew as much about the real status of the Virginia budget which is not that unusual ..par for the course for Politicians.

    Remember "read my lips"

    or right now, McDonnell is implying that he is a friend of Education and Transportation. yeah.. right… what does that mean?

    Gilmore screwed up Va.'s finances for at least a decade and it won't every really be fixed until they re-delegate auto property taxes back to the localities.

    and I think you are wrong about education also.

    The State collects 1% sales tax for k-12 education. As far as I know this did not change under Warner.

    That 1% – in Virgina's eyes belongs to Va not the localities who by the way also get 1% additional and separate.

    Virginia chooses to use that 1% to "level fund" education across the state and uses a composite index to decide how much to fund.

    You can disagree with how this is done but I don't think it's honest injun to characterize in the way you do.

    If you know of ADDITIONAL monies that Warner collected that was ALSO distributed (in addition to the 1%) in a direct subsidy different from the composite index method, please provide some evidence.

    I think you need to be "on your game" in this area…

    right now.. I think you are flying by the seat of your pants with regard to the facts.

    Point of fact, do you also hold Gilmore responsible for the composite index method of funding?

    Will you hold McDonnell responsible also if he does not change it?

    choose your position – and then apply it the same way for all Govs.

  18. LarryG:

    You just don't like Republicans. And you love Democrats. Sometimes, I think it's just that simple.

    Here are some nice videos for you to watch:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm4ei_aytMw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV2xCqgyWE8&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjyvWWnIOPQ&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7UmsUQ7EfE&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3auRI5Sz4l4&feature=related

    But this is my favorite:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbHT4D0-xlM

    A man who made his millions bilking the taxpayer in the original spectrum auctions now rants about AIG. What he did then would be illegal now.

  19. Anonymous Avatar

    Larry, the sales tax for education did change under Mark Warner. The tax itself went up by .5% as I recall. The schools all received one-eighth of one percent of the additional sales tax proceeds but their state aid was also adjusted downward. As far as I know, this happened statewide.

    My source is the Fairfax County Public Schools.

    TMT

  20. Anonymous Avatar

    I also agree with Groveton's statement that Obama is honest. He's doing pretty much what he said he would do.

    TMT

  21. Groveton – I like the R's who are true to their fiscally conservative principles and who do not play smoke and mirror games and who do not say "no mo taxes" but instead take JLARC and the Auditor of Public Accounts and other study commissions advice and implement them forthrightly and tell the social wingnuts to go fiddle.

    Face it Groveton – the Republicans have no credibility in fiscal conservatism these days..

    What is McDonnell promising?

    well. he's saying he's not really the guy that wrote that thesis.. he's "reformed" himself

    but what does he have to say about Virginia's budget and finances?

    at least that other Dem.. whatzhisname.. he was in favor of burning chicken poop for electricity.

    Show me an honest to pete Republican now days.

    The Rinos have been banished …

    The last thing Bill Howell gave us was that lovely 3202…

    Who is their leader in Virginia?

    McDonnell?

    I'll vote Republican (again) when they get over their tilt to the social right and get back to the fiscal conservatism business.

  22. TMT – do you have a link ?

    my understanding is that sales tax is what it has been for quite a while but I'll admit to having my share of senior moments now days.. but not as many as Groveton seems to be having..

    😉

    okay, let me get this straight.

    Warning was not plugging a budget hole.. he was INCREASING taxes and spending?

    right?

    jeeze .. why was he so popular ?

  23. Anonymous Avatar

    If Gil killed the car tax…why do I still have a car tax? The personal property tax was not removed, just redux

  24. Anonymous Avatar

    A link to the Department of Taxation's discussion of the 2004 sales tax increase. http://www.tax.virginia.gov/web_pdfs/SalesTax_Rate_Increase_Guidelines.pdf

    TMT

  25. Yup.. he did… blamed it on the deficit that Gilmore left and judging by the polls, most believed him.

    but you are correct TMT and I stand corrected.

  26. however, property tax relief required close to one billion dollars out of the State Budget.

    Warner used that to argue for 1.5 billion increase….

    and.. the House of Delegates was controlled by the Republicans who voted for it.

    So Warner advocated but he could not actually do the deed.

    He needed the Republicans to do that.

    so.. we can say that 2/3 of the increase was Gilmores and 1/3 was Warners and the Republican gatekeepers signed off on it.

    someone said Warner was 'sneaky' about it…

    gawed o'mighty … "sneaky" about 1.5 billion that the whole freaking GA knew about?

    hmmm… I dunno about that part.

  27. Anonymous Avatar

    I've always referred to the 2004 tax increase as the Chichester-Warner or Warner-Chichester tax increases.

    Warner is darn fine salesman. I listened to him persuade a number of Fairfax County residents to pay higher taxes that generally went to someone else's schools. But they felt good because it was for the children. Meanwhile in the fiscal year, 49 Virginia cities and counties reduced their local contribution to public education. But we did it for Fairfax County Public Schools. And we wonder why Bernie Madoff was successful.

    Maybe Mark Warner was right. Maybe we had a structural deficit that needed fixing. But one cannot continue to spend money faster than income grows. That's not a structural deficit. That's stupidity.

    Warner does seem to be doing a pretty decent job as senator. His office is responsive to inquiries. While I think he was wrong on the Recovery Act (should have been smaller and more targeted to infrastructure), but he's asking good questions on health care reform. Webb, on the other hand, seems lost since he no longer has Bush to rant and rave about. Hopefully, he'll be retired in 2012 – either in the Democratic primary or in the general election.

    TMT

  28. ah…the Rino effect. If it had been Bill Howell.. no tax increase?

  29. you know this was Gilmore's "back" strategy all along I think.

    I think he knew that Va would have a billion dollar shortfall and that we'd have to cut a billion out of the budget to fix it – but instead – a Mark Warner came along and go the tax increase…

    and Chichester retired because the Republicans were determined to out him…

    good theory?

  30. Anonymous Avatar

    Good question. Gilmore probably should not have pushed for the last year of the car tax cut. I never felt comfortable with it.

    But I don't know whether Warner would have then been able to avoid the tax increase or scale it down. He had Chichester and Potts — the great toadies of the real estate and road building industries — champing at the bit to deliver more tax dollars to those industries. Warner might have said no or he might have tried for tax increases anyway.

    I once had a 15-minute talk with Potts in McLean. I kept pushing him on the need to enact APF legislation and to end the proffer games with cost-based development impact fees — even as a part of a tax increase. But Ole Russ knew who buttered his bread. As Til Hazel infamously said, taxpayers are there to fund the infrastructure needed for development.

    But then, most Republicans and Democrats practice the Virginia state religion — developer worship.

    What if modernized our land use and related finance laws? Would we be in the same transportation fix if we had separation of "Church" and state? Would more people be open to tax increases if they knew public officials were not using the increased tax revenues to honor the "gods of development"?

    This one is not a simple R versus D issue. They all go to the same church and stand ready to put someone else's money into the collection basket.

    TMT

  31. we pretty much agree on the development issues.

    My view of any development proposal is to ask: "How will this development improve our community"?

    it's a softball question in some respects and what I advocate is a model development to compare it against where the model addresses the major issues involving levels of services and community amenities and services.

    Basic to that model would be level of service standards and a snapshot of the current levels of services in the area of the proposed development.

    The idea is not to have an adversarial process but instead an honest dialog about the things that are valued by the existing community and what they would say would be a worthy addition.

    it gets both sides thinking a little.. and it leaves some room for thinking some different ways about things.

    I am opposed to any and all Kelo-type "resolutions" for development decisions.

  32. Anonymous Avatar

    "If Gilmore had left that issue alone, Va would be much better off than we are right now."

    The state might be better off, but I don;t thinke we would be.

    I consistenty got tax bills based on assessments that were much higher than the car was worth. I would have happily sold the cars to the state for what they claimed they were worth.

    The car tax was unfair and badly managed.

    RH

  33. What Gilmore did was to ask people if they wanted to get rid of the car tax.

    Well.. duh.. what moron would say no to that…

    and most never asked how the money would be made up.. they just assumed that the money derived from the car tax went into some kind of a back hole and stopping the flow of it would be a good thing.

    But Virginia's localities knew otherwise – because – rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view – car taxes were used to offset property taxes much in the same way that Sales and other taxes are.

    So the more other "taxes" that a locality has – the easier it is to steer away from property tax increases which riles up more people.

    My experience was the other way.. they were pretty lenient on the value ..consistenting assigning a lower than actual value for tax purposes.

    So Gilmore had a plan…kill the hated car tax – AND cut the services that used it as a revenue source.

    How so?

    Easy.. the state funds local law enforcement and schools.

    So you put a new billion dollar line item in the state budget and cuts have to be found so you go cut a billion dollars worth o state to local aid.

    voila!

    And if Gilmore had TWO terms, that's exactly what he would have done…

    but then along came Warner who screwed everything up… not only did he not cut the aid to localities.. he used the car tax "hole in the budget" to justify a tax increase to fill it.

    Don't ya'll remember the "hole" in the budget discussions?

    So Gilmore's plan would have only worked if he could have two terms or a Republican followed him as Gov AND could win NoVa and it was only then that some of the smarter Republicans started to realize that elections in Va were no longer about RoVA but instead about NoVa and HR/TR and other urbanized areas like Charotlesville.. in fact most urbanized areas with those left-leaning University populations.

    I think at some point.. Va is going to bail on the "property tax relief" stink bomb and toss it back to the localities to see which ones are going to actually re institute it.

    Say… do you think that was also part of Gilmore's strategy?

    I think I've underestimated the man.

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