The Bigger Issue at Stake in Wisconsin — and Virginia

From my op-ed today in the Washington Times:

There is much more at stake in the showdown between Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and the public-employee unions than negotiations over pay scales or even the extravagant pension costs that threaten to drive the state into insolvency. The sleeper issue, the one that could have the biggest impact over the long run, is the move to curtail public employees’ collective-bargaining rights. Why? Because that could overturn the ossified practice of rewarding schoolteachers on the basis of seniority and credentials rather than performance.

Holding Wisconsin teachers accountable for performance isn’t what all the street protests, the sit-ins and the vein-popping hollering are about. To Republicans, the conflict is about tearing down a corrupt system in which Democratic Party officials and public-employee unions feather each others’ nests at taxpayers’ expense. To Democrats, it’s about shadowy billionaires underwriting GOP efforts to crush the union movement.

Ignore all that for a moment and follow my logic here. If there is one thing upon which liberals and conservatives who study educational reform agree, it’s that the single most important thing schools can do to improve the quality of public education is to hire good teachers. The academic research all agrees on that point. The big question among the wonky intellects who debate public policy issues is how to staff schools with good teachers.

One way to upgrade the overall caliber of the teaching profession is to weed out the bad teachers, but that is nearly impossible when public-employee unions negotiate contracts that eliminate the ability of school management to fire.

Dan Goldhaber and Roddy Theobold of the Urban Institute analyzed how Washington state school districts handled the layoff of 2,000 schoolteachers at the beginning of the 2010-11 school year. A teacher’s seniority was the greatest predictor of whether he received a reduction-in-force (RIF) notice, they found, but teachers with master’s degrees or those who were credentialed in “high-need” fields such as math, science and special education also were less likely to be furloughed. Teacher effectiveness was not a factor in determining who got axed.

Because teachers who keep their jobs are more senior and thus earn more money than those who are laid off, Mr. Goldhaber and Mr. Theobold observed, more teachers had to be furloughed. “We conservatively calculate that districts would only have to lay off 132 teachers under an effectiveness-based system in order to achieve the same budgetary savings they achieved with 145 RIF notices under today’s seniority-driven system,” Mr. Goldhaber and Mr. Theobold wrote.

But that’s chump change compared to the impact good teachers have on the lifetime earning potential of their students. As Eric A. Hanushek wrote in a recent paper published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, “Some teachers year after year produce bigger gains in student learning than other teachers. The magnitude of the differences is truly large, with some teachers producing 1 1/2 years of gain in achievement in an academic year while others with equivalent students produce only 1/2 year of gain. Students starting at the same level of achievement can know vastly different amounts at the end of a single academic year due solely to the teacher to which they are assigned.”

On the assumption that there should be some connection between a teacher’s performance and his compensation, Mr. Hanushek asks, what is the economic value of superior student achievement? He calculates that in a classroom of 20 students, a superior teacher generates an additional $400,000 in present value of students’ future earnings.

Put another way, Mr. Hanushek estimates that dumping the worst 5 percent to 8 percent of all teachers and replacing them with average teachers “could move the U.S. near the top of international math and science rankings.” The present value of student earnings would be roughly $100 trillion.”

Who are the primary victims of a system geared to protect the rights of the worst teachers? Typically, they are minority students. And that brings us back to Wisconsin. The free-market-oriented MacIver Institute observes that in 2009, 18.9 percent of all Wisconsin students failed to qualify for service in the U.S. Army based on their results in the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. The figure for black students was 46.9 percent.

By protecting the rights of bad teachers, public-employee unions are costing Wisconsin students hundreds of billions of dollars of future lifetime earnings – and blacks lose the most of all. To borrow from the lexicon of the progressives demonstrating in Madison, one might say public-employee unions are a form of “institutional racism.” If Wisconsin’s Democrats were genuinely worried about the future of America’s minorities or its middle class, they would come out from hiding, join Republicans in revoking the unions’ collective-bargaining rights and campaign to put better teachers in Wisconsin schools.

Bacon’s Rebellion addendum: The issue is bigger than what we pay teachers. It’s bigger than how we finance their retirement benefits. The issue is how well we educate our children.

Virginia’s school teacher union, the Virginia Education Association, does not enjoy collective bargaining rights. But it still exercises tremendous clout with school boards and in state policy. From what I’ve been told, it’s not much easier getting rid of bad teachers in the Old Dominion than it is in Wisconsin. We can no long afford to blindly pump billions of dollars into Virginia schools. We need to enact deep-rooted reform. And that may mean taking on the VEA here so we can develop effective performance measures, replace weak teachers with better ones and replace average teachers with excellent ones.


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79 responses to “The Bigger Issue at Stake in Wisconsin — and Virginia”

  1. Corrupt system? Please. What is corrupt is the corporate control of this country and its guard dog the Chamber of Commerce. Workers have the right to organize and collective bargaining. It is a travesty that the right has been made illegal in so many states yet the COC continues to exist!

    And while I admit there are issues with unions (never been a fan of non-performance based measures), the Kock brothers' and your attack is a real travesty and Un-American.

  2. Larry G Avatar

    Here's the problem Jim. You're equating corruption with collective bargaining.

    That the only way to deal with using seniority over performance is to gut the right to collectively bargain.

    Look at Virginia and compare to Wisconsin
    math reading
    Wisconsin 13th 15th grad rate= 88.5% per pupil= $10791

    Virginia 18th 26th 75.5% $10664

    Notice the last two – Va – a right-to-work state and Wisconsin – a public employee union state

    Notice that Wisconsin BEATS Va in 8th grade math and reading AND graduation rate and spend only about $150 more per student.

    http://febp.newamerica.net/k12/MA/comparison/custom?postcode=AK%2CAL%2CAR%2CAZ%2CCA%2CCO%2CCT%2CDC%2CDE%2CFL%2CGA%2CHI%2CIA%2CID%2CIL%2CIN%2CKS%2CKY%2CLA%2CMA%2CMD%2CME%2CMI%2CMN%2CMO%2CMS%2CMT%2CNC%2CND%2CNE%2CNH%2CNJ%2CNM%2CNV%2CNY%2COH%2COK%2COR%2CPA%2CPR%2CRI%2CSC%2CSD%2CTN%2CTX%2CUT%2CVA%2CVT%2CWA%2CWI%2CWV%2CWY&indicators=naep8math09rank%2Cnaep8read09rank%2Cnatlgrad07%2Cppexpend08

    or

    http://goo.gl/sD8zl

    look at this:

    verage 2009 NAEP Score By State Teacher Contract Laws

    States WITH binding teacher contracts

    4th grade: Math 240.0 Reading 220.7
    8th grade: Math 282.1 Reading 263.7

    States WITHOUT binding teacher contracts

    4th grade: Math 237.7 Reading 217.5
    8th grade: Math 281.2 Reading 259.5

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/how-states-with-no-teacher-uni.html

    you have zero evidence to show that seniority and performance are mutually exclusive.

    And you guys have lost the battle with the public:

    " By a modest margin, more say they back Wisconsin's public employee unions rather than the state's governor in their continuing dispute over collective bargaining rights.

    Roughly four-in-ten (42%) say they side more with the public employee unions, while 31% say they side more with the governor, Scott Walker, according to the latest Pew Research Center survey, conducted Feb. 24-27 among 1,009 adults."

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1910/poll-wisconsin-unions-favored-governor-scott-walker-president-obama-gop-leadership-government-shutdown

    The bigger question that you have not answered is why do BOTH Wisconsin AND Virginia only reach 34% proficiency in Math and Reading by the 8th grade?

    Is the VEA the reason why 2/3 of the children in Va rank below proficient?

    Here's a hint:

    Massachusetts – a union state –

    comes in 1st in Reading Math with 2/3 of their kids proficient but they do spend $13667 per student.

    Here's another irony:

    Utah – also a right-to-work state:

    Utah 23rd 19th 76.6% $5,978
    Virginia 18th 26th 75.5% $10,664

    comes close to matching Virginia in reading and math an yet they spent about 1/2 per student.

    What are we spending the other 5K on in Virginia?

    the short answer is NOT core academics.

    If you REALLY want to find out what is going on in education – rather than jump on the partisan bandwagon – you need to be non-partisan FIRST in your search for answers because right-to-work states do not do better at all.

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Right to work is important because Unions exploit workers in closed shop states. When I was still in school, I worked part-time at Montgomery Ward in Minnesota Minnesota is a closed-shop state, so I was required to join the Teamsters to get and hold a job.

    The Union collected full dues from my paycheck even though I only worked full time in the summer. The Union obtained no benefits for part-time employees.

    Inventory was taken in February, and right after that, part-time employees were generally laid off for a month-to-six-weeks. Pay stopped, but union dues did not. A laid-off, part-time employee had two choices: 1) withdraw from the union and pay a $75 fee to rejoin (back when the minimum wage was less than $2 per hour); or 2) pay back dues for the weeks of unemployment once one was called back to work. Generally, my first couple of paychecks went just to taxes and back dues.

    I went from a union supporter to a union hater. Unions exist for their own benefit. They couldn't cut it in the market and turned to government. They also sold out the American worker for big,. inefficient government.

    TMT

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    BTW, I presume Peter selected the photo. He has the best taste in females, by far!!!

    TMT

  5. Larry G Avatar

    I do not think that unions are much different than corporations.

    There are good ones and bad ones. Ones that treat their members decently and ones that as simply bad.

    but this has nothing to do with collective bargaining and whether or not the mere functioning of collective bargaining adversely affects pay and performance.

    Remember this – your fire and EMS are likely union as well as the pilot and co-pilot of the commercial plane that you fly on.

    This is yet another customized wedge issue from the right to divide people rather than a positive agenda for change.

    It's destructive and poisons the environment to effect change.

    Several Republican Governors including Christie and Bloomberg have made this point.

    The standard Republican tactic of wedge politics is increasingly tiresome and the American people are catching on to it.

    Their agenda is basically to divide and then to misrepresent the issues in hopes of peeling off enough people in the middle to support them in their agenda – which is more focused on rule than governance.

    It's a failed strategy that basically embraces obstruction and gridlock in the political process.

    In other words, if you can't win.. then slash and burn.

  6. Larry G Avatar

    What's going on right now is a deja vu of Reagan's successful strategy to put a wedge between blue collar and white collar workers an to then exploit the divide to corporate/employer advantage.

    The anti collective-bargaining campaign is simply a 21st century update of the original Reagan strategy except in this case divide the workers along union and non-union lines using the same tactics to divide and exploit the divide.

    Some unions do need to be reined in. The worst of them are little better than crime syndicates – in fact probably ARE crime syndicates but the baby out with the bathwater is dumb.

    It's like we go after all corporations because some of them are run by Bernie Madoff types.

    It's once again the Republican boogeyman approach to political issues.

    It's destructive and tears down rather than fix and move forward.

  7. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

    "Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that 'under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government.'"

    Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    TMT

  8. Larry G Avatar

    Strikes are NOT the same as collective bargaining.

    It's a simplistic sound-bite view that grossly ignores the distinction.

    There are, in fact, many govt unions that DO collectively bargain – successfully – and to the BENEFIT of the workers AND the employer.

    What we're doing is blaming bad management on collective bargaining.

    If you're a bad manager..then blame the workers….

  9. I'm sorry, good teacher? Good luck.

    In my entire student career, I can recall maybe six that I wouldn't fire if they worked for me directly.

    I believe we need to stop this silly argument, and re-think what is possible.

    We need to attempt a fundamental change in education.

    We need a ten year moon shot in education.

    We need a quantum leap in education.

    When I think back to all of my time my teachers wasted, I could just scream. How many times did I sit through those morons taking roll? I could tell you who wasn't there in two seconds, and probably why. In fifth grade.

    Jehoshaphat, what a waste of energy.

    Honestly, we could fire every teacher. Just make teaching like jury duty. Each person comes in and tells the kids the most important thing they ever learned.

    Competition would take over.

    Think about it.

    Scrap the system and start over.

  10. Larry G Avatar

    there are schools in the United States and schools in many other countries that produce 2/3 or better student levels of math, science and reading proficiency.

    It's something that some know how to do.

    The problem with many of our schools is that the parents want amenities – sports, college-prep, extra-curricula but they don't want tough academic standards that require the same level of achievement that most other countries require.

    Parents in this country do not want their kids to get bad grades because it will hinder their choice of colleges they can get into to so they'd rather their kids NOT have to take robust academic courses.

    At the same time they want their amenities – that in many cases add thousands of dollars per kid in costs – to the point where in some schools those non-core academic courses compete for resources with the core academic but like I said most parents simply do not want their kids in the higher level courses anyhow.

    We play the blame game.

    We blame the teachers.

    We blame the unions.

    We blame.

    but our school systems pretty much reflect what we want – not what we need to be doing and it won't change until enough parents and taxpayers want it to.

    And a big hint….

    we won't get there by killing collective bargaining or firing so called "bad" teachers.

    Many of the teachers basically do what is expected of them and don't make waves.

    If they actually try to demand academic excellence from their students – they get into trouble.

    For myself – I'd sign on to a Voucher system with the following proviso.

    They must meet the NAEP proficiency benchmarks or they don't get their voucher.

    we do need drastic change but you're going to find that if we set high standards for voucher schools – that the teachers capable of meeting those standards are not going to be cheap.

    I really like the idea of Social Bonds – where we let other schools compete for the education dollar but again with the proviso that performance benchmarks are mandatory – not optional.

    I don't want to see yet another Corporate scam sucking on the Federal Tax dollar ostensibly to "deliver" ….some bogus service as an "entitlement".

  11. The parents in my grade school wanted amenities: indoor plumbing.

  12. Larry, I know your wife is a teacher.

    Scrap the system and start over.

  13. Strikes are a failure of bargaining.

    If I can't strike a bargain with a rug merchant, I walk away.

    I don't picket his store.

  14. Larry G Avatar

    My wife is indeed a teacher at an elementary school with at risk kids and the teachers fundamental duty is to help figure out where the child needs help and then get it for them to keep them on grade level.

    because if the kids don't leave elementary schools with the fundamentals, they are gone unless a minor miracle happens.

    But that elementary school cannot get the resources it needs even though the county has a full up competitive sports program, Baccalaureate programs, 6 foreign languages, governors school, etc and a graduation rate below 80%.

    It's what the parents want.

    The minimum grade to play sports is 64.

    they raise holy heck if their kids can't play sports and they don't care if the kid is functionally illiterate as long as he can get accepted at some college…

    this pretty much defines our country now days.

    We don't want our kids to be "damaged" by low grades even if they are essentially functionally illiterate.

    "tough love" is what we think of ourselves but the reality is we have turned fat and lazy and this is what we have bequeathed to our kids.

    We keep yammering about what will we leave our kids… "crushing debt", yadda, yadda, yadda.

    What we are leaving our kids with is crippled educations that are up against kids from other countries with world class – globally-competitive educations.

    and instead of taking responsibility for this and teaching our kids to take responsibility for their own futures,

    we blame the unions…. and "bad" teachers.

  15. Grades are a total waste of time.

    Scrap the whole system.

    Give vouchers. If parents want sports schools, so be it.

    If they want Muslim or Christian or bigot schools, so be it.

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Great post Jim! Where's the link to the oped in the Times?

  17. Seriously, I was so disgusted with my school experience ( and it was a good one, relatively) that I delayed having children until I could afford private school for them.

    My only child died, but she may have been lucky compared to those that are going to have to live with what passes for an education today.

  18. Really, just consider some of the oliegoarchs you know with a PhD
    .

  19. You want better schools?

    Only allow schools in the best zip codes and bus everyone else in.

  20. Larry G Avatar

    well.. there are lots of alternatives to public school now days.

    Home Schooling is a big deal and there are more and more online courses whose content is aligned with state curriculum standards.

    When you get right down to it – the content that you need to learn – is readily available at your fingertips.

    The real question is why you need a human teacher.

  21. Atlanta Roofing Avatar
    Atlanta Roofing

    The inequality illustrates why libertarians are wrong about everything. It is not possibly true that the people at the top have been working that much harder. It's not supply and demand that has distributed wealth that way. There are a lot of factors involved, not least relentless "free market" propaganda supported by the likes of movement libertarians, who seem to think that EVIL THEFT is happening only among the poor and working classes, even though they've seen absolutely no gain from all their years of supposedly rigging the system in their favor.

  22. Atlanta:

    Well said.

    I never understood the logic that says various un named and ill organized factions are smart enough to plan and pull off enormously complicated conspiracies, which the rest of the world is too stupid and powerless to see or prevent.

    Such people have hijacked what it means to be a libertarian: one who believes in maximum liberty, consistent with equal responsibility.

  23. If you like, you can drop down below and drop a few similar erudite bombs on AZA and EMR who seem to believe that liberty applies only to them (him).

  24. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Larry, your comparison of Virginia to Wisconsin is, and I hope I don't sound too harsh, utterly irrelevant. I don't suggest that eliminating the union's collective bargaining rights will magically transform the public school system. Curtailing collective bargaining is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition. It is but one of several reforms that need to be made in order to unleash teacher productivity. While Virginia does not have collective bargaining in its schools, it has not made the other institutional changes that must be made.

    What are those changes? First, establish a valid, statistically sound methodology for calculating a teacher's performance (educational value added). As far as I know, no school system has done that. They're all blind as bats when it comes to their ability to objectively appraise the quality of a teacher's work.

    Secondly, you have to put in a mechanism for connecting pay to performance. In particular, you must have a mechanism for weeding out the bad teachers. Virginia has not done this either.

    Sadly, the recent history of unions in this country is to defend the workplace status quo and to resist the management and cultural changes that need to take place. That certainly applies to teacher unions, whether they have formal collective bargaing rights, as they do in Wisconsin, or they work their influence through different channels, like the VEA does in Virginia. Are you a status-quo kind of guy, Larry? Do you oppose change? That's the way you come across with your defense of the public employee unions.

  25. Larry G Avatar

    Jim – the only thing I wanted to illustrate is that there is no evidence what-so-ever that unions affect the performance of teachers nor the quality of the education.

    In fact the highest rate state school system in the country is Massachusetts – a public union state.

    These reforms you speak of have not been done at ANY of the right-to-work states and if you want me to believe this is the SECOND necessary sufficient condition AFTER we get rid of te unions – NO DICE.

    You show me the reforms first and then after we know those reforms do work in non-union states only – we'll talk.

    You're using the issue as a phony excuse that has nothing to do with the realities at all – an increasingly more prevalent problem with Conservatives these days.

    They want what they want – and the facts don't really matter as long as they are "arranged" to look "plausible".

    This is a sad state for Conservatives who used to be the deep thinkers of the political world but now have become the "we don't need no stinkin facts to justify what we want" party.

    Nowdays, if the facts actually support them – that's a "bonus"!

    There are schools in the United States right now that meet PISA standards. Do they hire, fire and promote based on teacher performance?

    Come on Jim – at the least MAKE your CASE!

  26. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Curtailing collective bargaining is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition.

    ==============================

    I dont think so. Government, if so inclined can refuse the demands of workers, collectively or not.

    But, if the workers walk, government will face the expense of replacing them, and new workers may very well demand more, after they see how previous workers were treated.

    In college, I took a job running the campus print shop, under the condition that I would not get the student rate but the off campus rate for that job. When that didn't happen, I quit and took an off campus job. But I knew who my replacement would be, so I told him not to take the job,unless he got the raise up front.

    He got it, though they would not give it to me.

    This was collective bargaining on a small scale, and all it got was parity.

    Government is organized. It is petently unfair to expect every individual to negotiate individually with an organization which has already planned the outcome.

    People have the right to free association, so there is nothing anyone can do if the workers choose to hold meetings.

    Now it comes down to whether government or management is willing to talk to a representative from those meetings.

    There is also the little matter of required union membership, but management has no one to blame for that but itself.

    It is understandable that unions would not want free riders to get the wage and benefits package negotiated by the union without payment to the union, but there are ways around that if anyone wanted it to happen. Instead this issue is used as a wedge to fight over instead of facing the larger issue.

    RH

  27. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Sadly, the recent history of unions in this country is to defend the workplace status quo and to resist the management and cultural changes that need to take place.

    ================================

    I think a lot of people would agree that unions were once critically necessary, but now they may have gone too far.

    But think about this historically. Precisely the reason that management and unions developed an antagonistic position instead of a cooperative one is that management resisted the management and cultural changes that needed to take place.

    RH

  28. The right is claiming that public employess get 32% more than private sector.

    I don't think that is a credible number, and they hurt their case with such craziness.

  29. Larry G Avatar

    " Government, if so inclined can refuse the demands of workers"

    indeed.

    Unions across the country have been in give-back mode both Government and private sector.

    When the unions are brought into the conversation and given the ability to comment and make suggestions – often they are helping to find answers and to provide a worker perspective as to what changes will be more readily embraced.

    The teacher "performance" approach without a defined method is simply yet another way for administrators to get rid of teachers they don't care for INCLUDING the ones who demand academic excellent in their classrooms and in turn get the parents on them that they are being "too hard" and "unreasonable" and that teacher is gone if the school system wants them gone.

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    On Education:

    A lot of good observations on the topic of education, including those by Hydra who obviously has a better understanding of education than of settlement patterns.

    The sad thing is that both Peter G. And Jim B. keep attacking the symptoms of dysfunctional governance structure and not the governance structure.

    And all the commentors pile on and do the same.

    Get over it, it is the structure that is the problem, not the details.

    Observer

  31. Larry G Avatar

    governance structure is the problem with education?

    is that why 29 other countries beat us academically no matter whether it if Finland, France, China or Japan?

    nice try. no dice.

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    OOPS

    Larry has just fallen off of Hyde’s Hay wagon.

    If he does not understand the relationship between governance structure and the education process, it is no wonder he is lost when it comes to settlement patterns.

    CJC

  33. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    To sharpen CJC’s point:

    There is a lot the states and municipalities (and the ‘independent’ school districts in many states) could learn from the governance structure below the province / state scale in Finland, France and Japan.

    I am not sure how much I trust the Chinese data but there are lessons there too. I would not include them because some idiot would say I was supporting communism.

    Observer

  34. Larry G Avatar

    well who knows?

    Remember, we're talking about most of the industrialized world spending about 1/2 what we do on education and scoring better than us – and in turn out-competing us in the global economy.. more jobs.. healthier economies and more/better opportunity at more efficient settlement patterns.

    right?

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    As much as I would like to agree with Mr. Bacon that everyone along the political spectrum should want to improve education by weeding out dead wood, Mr. Gross has the better argument.

    There is no connection between states that allow collective bargaining and the quality of education delivered.

    That reinforces the point made by Observer:

    Stop fussing over the results of bad governance structure and start working to change governance the structure.

    Mr. Gross seems unable to understand the connection between bad governance and bad education processes outcomes.

    Most advanced economies have moved beyond a 18th century three tiered governance structure that was relevant in an agrarian society with more land than it knew what to do with and no tradition of Urban governance. The US is still stuck with a dysfunctional system.

    The education system does not work as well as in places that have evolved better governance. Ditto the health care system. Everyone seems to agree on the data.

    But that is not the end of the story. The infrastructure does not match the needs of the majority of citizens and what is there is falling apart. Special interests have gotten the country engaged in wars to protect the interests of a few to the determent of the majority. The federal, state and municipal legislative processes are in gridlock.

    It seems Mr. Gross, Mr. Hyde, Mr. Bacon and Mr. Gooze could all agree on the need for Fundamental Transformation.

    NERE

  36. Larry G Avatar

    I'm just not convinced that fundamental change any more or less than collective bargaining has any real influence on the school problem.

    The school problem.. is really driven by LOCAL decision-making more than virtually any other funding mechanism.

    In most places in Virginia, more than half of the local taxes on homes and cars goes to pay for schools and in most places – like Fairfax – most parents are happy to pay the money even if it makes homes unaffordable for many who then leave to the exurban counties to commute.

    Taxes in Loudoun County are about $5000 a year .. more than twice..three times as much as many rural counties who simply cannot afford all the bells and whistles that Loudoun parents demand.

    When you say convince people of the need for fundamental change… you're talking about the 240,000 who live in Loudoun and pay $5000 a year in property taxes.

  37. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    If he does not understand the relationship between governance structure and the education process……..

    ==================================

    There is no useful relationship between education and governance.

    School board operates independently from the rest of government, which basically sends money.

    Most people educated in the system don't bother to vote, reducing the connection still more.

    Those that do vote generally vote according to theis selected dogma rather than through any kind of intellectual exercise.

    Once elected by a small percentage of the population, elected officials do pretty much as they please.

    If he does not understand…. is a conditional insult, and since the if does not a pply the premise does not apply and the entire statement is false.

    Hypercondionalized sentences are a trademark and style stamp for EMRs writing: providing you buy into all the conditions, the sentences are always true. but frequently the conditions are mutually contradictory, or so narrow the field, or are so flat out wrong that the remainder of the sentence is meaningless.

    RH

  38. Before you get to fired up on fundamental change and settlement patterns, read the letter by Leslie Cheek III inthis weeks Democrat in whichh she basically rips the legislature a new one over UDAs.

    She is horrified at the idea that Fauquier will have to find room for 6000 people OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS and put thme, gof forbid, IN THE SERVICE DISTRICTS, and on a small fraction of our land.

    At the same time she thinks increased density in the service districts should come with decreased density in the rural areas, even after those areas have already been downzoned SIX TIMES.

    Never mind that Loudoun accommodated more than 40 times that amount and still increased average earnings and average retained weath for its citizens.

    But we can see the hindwriting on the wall now, and it is just as I predicted. Those in the UDAs are going to get a huge subsidy, which will be paid for by those in the rural areas.

    Until you come up with a plan for fundamental change which is equitable, you don't have a good plan.

    And once you pass that hurdle you need a dish that is palatable, which is where EMRs rhetoric fails miserably, as well as voluminously.

    And even if you do both of those things, I still don't see how moving people around gives you better schools, better students, better parents or better teachers.

    I might be happy to be a teacher, bilingual, skilled in higher math and science, and finance as well, but the problem is you would have to pay me about four times what a teacher gets. just to put up with the DFLL.

    RH

  39. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    To a professional in the mental health field it is astounding how much some willing to put into the public domain via blogs.

    The reasons that “hydra” had a bad education experience growing up are evident today. He does not play well with others. Name calling, bullying, a perfect ‘disruptive student’ profile.

    Dr. G

  40. Larry G Avatar

    maybe.. but he's not guilty of the cowardly practice of deleting others comments and in terms of playing well with others, he's up several levels on that basis.

  41. The main reason I had a bad experience, (and it was way better than some others, I lived in an area with penty of money to spend on education, because 90% of the homes were vacant during the school year) was that the system was geared for the average and even lower level students.

    In fourth grade I read every book they had in four weeks, then I started in on the full set of O'Henry from my fathers library.

    I was a big troublemaker: I insisted on equal time as the slower kids got. Got in big trouble one time, my teacher wanted me out of the way and told me to add up all the numbers from 1 to a hundred. I looked at her and said 5050. She accused me of being a smartmouth, etc. before she figured out I was right.

    Sort of like around here.

  42. 290,000 people live in Loudoun. Around 60,000 lived there in 1982, about the same as Fauquier today.

    A few of them are paying more than $10,000 in taxes.

    But you raise a point, if they are paying 5000 in taxes and it costs 11,000 per kid educated……….

    Then it is easy to claim the average home doesn't pay its own infrastructure costs.

    The claim is wrong, but that doesn't seem to keep people from saying it over, and over, and over, and over.

    People like Leslie Cheek III.

  43. Larry G Avatar

    Each home pays 5K and the student does cost 10K (approx) and the difference is in local and State funding + a bit of Fed Funding.

    But in general the other 5K comes from State Income taxes and sales tax – that, in fact, mostly comes from the same people paying the 5K property tax.

    Growth, by definition, "pays for itself" as long as the County has to have a balanced budget each year.

    Where things come undone is that we don't keep up with the infrastructure and over time the level of service for infrastructure such as roads and facilities such as schools and fire/rescue simply deteriorate as to do so would require a tax increase and if we had the tax increases that are sufficient enough to maintain an acceptable LOS – it would mean that growth does not pay for itself because the more growth you have – the higher the taxes go.

    So BOS won't raise taxes but will let the roads go to hell in a handbasket an then blame the state so they can evade responsibility.

  44. That comes from the same people paying the property tax.
    Plus the businesses they run.

    My point exactly.

    But the anti development crowd, and county officials will tell you every house causes a loss, unless it is something like three times the average house: ignoring all the other revenue and the fact real estate is only one third of the budget.

  45. Larry G Avatar

    when you have higher growth rates – there is no way to keep up with the infrastructure without tax increases and what normally happens is the roads and schools don't get updated to handle the growth

    and that, in turn, leads to opposition to more growth because people see that growth results in crowded roads and schools.

    This is why the counties try to charge proffers because if they raise taxes instead, they get voted out of office.

    So it depends on one's point of view as to whether growth actually pays for itself or not.

    In most situations, most people see the increased congestion and crowded schools an conclude that it does not.

  46. The more growth you have the higher taxes go, which is why urban areas are inefficient failures.

    Except, they also grow the income faster than the taxes. Loudoun has higher taxes, but after growth and taxes, they are still ahead of the average no-no growth fauquier resident.

    And, the no growth crowd is not the crowd that ever has to worry about taxes.

  47. Loudoun has dozens of new schools and fauquier can't afford to remodel one.

    Loudoun residents earn more, own more, and keep more after taxes.

    How is that a point of view?

  48. Larry G Avatar

    not really. the houses might be worth more but the taxes on them are outrageous and over their 30 year mortgages, people probably pay half again as much in taxes as they paid for the house and in todays market if you look at the decreased value of the home plus all the taxes you paid for it you may well not recover all your investment when you sell it.

    but worse than that – because the infrastructure does not keep pace with the development it usually results in degradation to levels of service when then adversely affects quality of life.

    If you recognize this as a developer then you know how to go about threading the needle to get approval and if you look at the amount of development in Loudoun and Fairfax you'll know that no matter how strong the anti-development forces are that the developers have had huge success in developing property.

  49. That's a thirty year, side by side experiment, and the results are in.

    How are the test scores between loudoun and fauquier?

  50. Oh, come on. I've already accounted for that. They paid the taxes, they still have more house and more money left over to spend and invest. You never hear them talk about that: it is considered rude. But complaining about taxes is like talking about the weather, or law and order.

    You never get an argument. People believe "facts" that just are not so.

    However, quality of life is an issue. People in fauquier love that bucolic charm.

    They just don't realize that it cost them 14 billion dollars.

  51. The big developers win. Fauquier used to have a number of fine small builders. Local people the county killed.

    I never wanted to be a developer. Despite EMRs lies. I wanted one modest by right house. It was all I could afford. But the county took it, despite written promises.

    And that was the end of my wife's legacy. Between us, it probably cost us 20% of our net worth.

    Instead of something worth $250 k plus $18k per year ( in this market) we have instead something worth $4k plus $100 per year, if I work hard enough.

    Sure I'm angry. But my wife is downright bitter. She will never forgive Harry atherton for what he did to her.

    And were lucky. A lot of other people lost even more.

    Stolen. For no sufficient reason.

    You take the numbers above and multiply it by twenty years and the number of people like my wife, and you have a hell of a pricetag to put on Harry's life work. And he is proud of it. He knows what he has done. He looked her straight in the eye and did it anyway. He and his supporters.

    It is too bad, really. He did a good thing, maybe. He should be proud. Too bad he could not find an honest way to pay for it.

  52. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Hydra’s post on Leslie Cheek is a perfect example of why one cannot believe most of what he says.

    First Leslie is a ‘he’, not a ‘she.’

    Second he is upset about exactly what Observer says: The governance structure is dysfunctional because of where the decisions he refers to are made – at the state level, not at the SubRegional, Community and Village levels where the impact exists.

    CJC

  53. Accurate Avatar
    Accurate

    Part One

    Gads, I can't just sit here and read this stuff, it pushes my buttons big time. This is about at least 2 different subjects that happen to have a common element and I'm not even going to touch all the references to EMR (after all, if you don't post a ra-ra accolate on EMR's posting then they, like the Iranian government, ban your speech).

    The two subjects are education and unions, public unions to be exact and I have a ton of experience and feelings on both issues. As for unions, overblown and have become an entity unto themselves. Basically appear to have forsaken the worker in favor of thier own internal interests. As for unions for public workers, horrible idea, you don't hold up basic and necessary services because of a dispute over who's job it is to hold the gauze on a a wound (EMT) or direct a plane to a runway (airports). Government benefits are generous enough, for the most part they are very good jobs when compared to the private sector with a lot more security. They USE to be lower paying, a lot of that has gone away. When I was last laid off (2 years ago) I finally got tired of being employed at the whim of profits. My job is more secure (although, yes even these jobs occasionally get cut). I was recently offered a job by a private firm for about 50% more than I'm making now (and included a company truck) but I know at my age, jobs get more and more difficult to get and I didn't want to be looking again when this private firm decided that this area was no longer profitable. The city I work for has a union but since it's Texas, we are not required to join the union and I haven't. As for Chris and the union supporters, if you don't like where you work, the wages or conditions – GO FIND ANOTHER JOB. I always said, if I ran a business and the folks who worked for me formed a union, rather than negotiate, I'd give notice that I would close the business in 30 days. I wouldn't even sell it, I'd just close it – give my customers to the competition, I don't like unions (and I've belonged to 3 of them, all pretty much as useful as tits on a boar).

  54. Hydra’s post on Leslie Cheek is a perfect example of why one cannot believe most of what he says.

    First Leslie is a ‘he’, not a ‘she.’

    =================================

    Sorry about that, hard to tell from a newspaper signature, I wouldn't say that was an indictment of my veracity.

    Anyone can read the article themselves and decide if my interpretation is correct.

    Originally, I quoted directly, but blooger hiccuped and I lost the post. As a result I resorted to paraphrasing what I understood her to say. That is a big exercise in reading between the lines and understanding the history, but in no case did I deliberately misstate what I understood her to say.

    And I left out entirely her tirade against alternative septic systems and a proposed development in Catlett.

    CJC is right about one thing. Leslie is upset that the rules are not made at the local level, where he and his friends are more likely to be able to promote undue influence: he hasn't got as much power over what other people do.

    I don't have any problem whatsoever with what Leslie is trying to do. I have a problem with how he intends to pay for it, or rather not pay for it.

    I have a problem that he is apparently unable to understand what is equitable, let alone propose a p[lan that allows for some level of equity.

  55. Accurate Avatar
    Accurate

    Part two –

    As for education. Go watch the film 'Waiting for Superman', then talk to me about the education system. When I went to school, I spent the first nine years in parochial school. I spent the last three years of high school (at that time there was only grade school and high school – another concept that really needs to come back not this middle school nonsense) in a public school. The difference was insane. I cruised through 3 years of public high school on what I had learned from nine years in a parochial school. The difference was so stark that when my kids started school, I worked my rear off to put them into parochial schools (in Oregon pretty much your only choices are VERY expensive private schools, of which there are very few, or parochial schools or public schools). With various layoffs, there was one year that both my daughters ended up in public school. Both my daughters to this day agree that public school was a joke (and these were suppose to be some pretty good public schools). No, teachers should NOT belong to unions and schools need to get back to teaching the basics. Too much time spent teaching 'no bullying', 'no racism', 'being gay is okay, you need to think of it as another kind of normal', etc, etc, etc. Too much crap with parents thinking that their little pookie has been discriminated against or been picked on. In Europe (and I dispise Europe) at least parents are allowed to send the kid to the school they WANT, not just where they live.

    Rant mode off

  56. Basically appear to have forsaken the worker in favor of thier own internal interests.

    ===============================

    Agreed, organizational behavior, 101. As for government pay, I also agree it is probably on par, all things considered.

    But lets look at the conservative take. This morning I heard one conservative claiming that unions were spending "jillions" in dues money to support democratic candidates.

    I can't beleive jillions, so I dismiss most of the rest, and he has lost a listener. (this is EMRs problem, too)

    The second sound bite argued that the government was paying these people and they were using the money to support democratic candidates who helped thme get sitll more money: therefore taxpayer money was being used to support democratic candidates.

    But wait a minute, once the workers get paid, it is THEIR money, not the governments. So again, a flaw in the argument crashes the listening circuit.

    Consider the football players. One option for them is to close the union and become a trade association. Then they would have more power because they could sue the owners and potenetially get triple damages.

    So, while unions have gone out of control, people do have a right to associate. The problem is how to modulate them and management equally, so that neither goes out of control, with bad results for all.

    We all want to get ahead, and it is not a zero sum game, so it pays more to be cooperative than antagonistic. Game Theory 101.

  57. Larry G Avatar

    Accurate – you're obviously entitled to your opinion but it looks like the American Public believes that workers have the right to organize and collectively bargain by a large margin.

    and I'll tell you a short little story about a teacher in right-to-work Va whose boss decided to get rid of him not because of performance but because he simply did not like him and that teacher who did not belong to the VEA – went to the VEA with hat in hand and they provided him with a lawyer who made short work of the offending boss.

    People don't like unfairness. They don't like miserable bosses who mistreat their employees and essentially tell them to do the work and put up with whatever abuses they wish to heap on the employee and then promise to destroy any efforts for them to find another job.

    People do not like this and they believe that there ought to be an organization that protects the workers from scum bosses.

    that's where unions come from and I'll readily admit that some of them have become as bad or worse as the corporations they rebut.

    People who work in right-to-work states who don't join the unions are benefiting from the union.. have protections as you point out that you enjoy as a municipal employee that you'd not have otherwise.

    But the public employee union kerfuffle with regard to education is a bogus as the day is long and the American people know it and are not buying the right wing ideologues "advice".

    Teachers pretty much do what they are told to do.

    If kids are not learning – as in kids across an entire school division are not scoring well on tests – like the claim is in Wisconsin – be appraised that the same percent of kids in right-to-work Va also score just as badly and the reason why has nothing to do with teachers nor unions but the way the school systems are operated by the bosses.

    So you're certainly entitled to your right wing view of the world but lucky for the rest of us – you hold about 20% of the electorate and it's starting to look like the other 80% are not buying your philosophy.

  58. Anyone look up the test scores between loudoun and fauquier yet?

    I don't know the answer, but I would bet that higher incomes and more wealth in Loudoun translate to higher scores.

    Whereas, if any of this resulted from settlement pattern an governance structure, the results would be bad most everywhere.

  59. Larry G Avatar

    Accurate – I AGREE with you about the state of the Schools but the right-to-work states don't do any better job than the public union states and in fact some of the best public schools in the country are in union states.

    I'm always amused at how you right-leaning folks miss the real story and screw up on what the reality really is.

    In this case, it has NOTHING to do with teachers and NOTHING to do with Unions but that does not keep you righties from your own little world views no matter how mistaken they are.

    ya'll are like political loose cannons… lots of energy but don't know what the heck you're doing…

  60. Larry G Avatar

    Facquier
    Funding $10,631 Per Pupil Expenditure 2008

    Achievement
    92% 4th Grade Reading 2008-09 NCLB
    86% 4th Grade Math 2008-09 NC

    Loudoun
    Funding $13,172
    Per Pupil Expenditure 2008
    Achievement
    92% – 4th Grade Reading 2008-09 NCLB
    91% – 4th Grade Math 2008-

    http://febp.newamerica.net/k12/va/5102250

  61. 30% more expenditure – 5% more achievemnt in math.

    Sounds like they are pretty far up on the power curve. Looks like Loudoun is not getting a lot more education ccomplished for the money they spend. But, they have a lot of nie new schools.

    Private schools probably spend more. How do they compare, or are the SOLS required?

    The settlement pattern is different in eastern Loudoun than western, any differenced in achievement there?

  62. and the reason why has nothing to do with teachers nor unions but the way the school systems are operated by the bosses.

    ================================

    I'd have to mostly disagree with that.

    I had almost zero contact with the "bosses" and I almost never saw them in the classroom.

    I can't figure how they had very much to do with my interaction with my teachers, on a daily basis, or my performance.

    Say this is a dirt bike race:

    The bosses set the course and make rules on how much power the biks can have and how the classes are divided.

    The teachers show you how to start the bike, shift gears, change the oil, and maybe how to tell when something is wrong. They might give some general guidance, like don't try to go straigt ups a near vertical slope, zig zag instead.

    But when the kid gets out on the track, his perfrmance depends on his strenght and stamina, his ability to adapt to conditions and assimilate information. The bosses and the teachers are pretty much out of it.

    It also helps if dad got him a top notch bike, to begn with.

  63. Accurate: thanks.

    And I do not doubt the difference between parohial schools and public schools.

    I imagine management at parochial schools has a different set of goals than management at public schools, and their relationship to staff is a lot different.

    That says to me that more than unions might be making a difference.

  64. Larry G Avatar

    When the ENTIRE school system is not doing well on the achievement scores – it's not individual teachers that are the cause an anyone who wants to say that it is ALL of the teachers then I point you to most all the School systems in right-to-work Virginia (and most states) that have the problem.

    That's what is missing here from the conversation.

    The low achievement issue spans the states, it spans the states that are right-to-work and union and pretty much describes about 90% of the schools in this country.

    That's not a teacher problem.

    That's an institutional / industry problem.

  65. Larry G Avatar

    the difference in the private schools is this.

    Anything beyond the basic academics is mostly EXTRA COST and so the focus is on academics.

    In the public school system, the parents lobby the school board for ever amenity known to mankind "for the kids", of course and the SB is more than happy to include it in the budget and throw that budget over the wall to the BOS who will then get pressure from the parents to "fully fund" the school system.

    In a private school – where the parents directly put up their own hard-earned money and the kid does badly – there is accountability.

    and as often as not – it focuses on the child (as it should) and what needs to happen to get him/her back on track.

    In the public school system, there is an expected percent of "spoilage" (failure) and the way they deal with it is to pass the kid even if he/she is functionally illiterate.

    this is not a teacher problem.

  66. Accurate Avatar
    Accurate

    Larry, you've always made me laugh with the way you continually carry the water for the liberal democrats and then deny the fact that you do. Actually, the majority of the country is moving back into a conservative mode, witness the elections of 2010.

    I didn't have time to point out one other situation that I'm seeing here in Texas. As I pointed out, in Oregon the choices in schools were pretty limited. Here in Texas private schools – Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, private – they are thriving and expanding. The reason appears to me, to be the lack of real learning that is going on in the public schools. Part of it is the pupils that are going to public schools. Hispanics who don't have a good grasp of english. Which in turn means a lot of the work gets either watered down or slowed down so it can be taught in english and spanish. There is the problem of problem children. Private schools have no problem expelling them, to get expelled in a public school (by the administration) takes an act of God (whom they don't believe in).

    Larry – I don't think it's the teachers fault that kids don't do well in school. There are a heck of a lot of good teachers. The union helps keep the bad ones with the good ones. Our legal system and the unions make teaching a difficult profession, at best. Too many public schools have merely become warehouses for children till thier parents get off work – not much more or much less. When and where possible more and more parents are choosing something BESIDES public school for thier kids and those who can't wish that they could. Our schools are dismal and unions and throwing money at them ISN'T the answer, never has been.

  67. Larry G Avatar

    I'm no friend of the liberals when it comes to schools Accurate.

    I think our current system sucks and wastes money hand over first on just about every conceivable excuse for a course while running away from academic rigor.

    The truth is that many parents do not want their kids to get bad grades and they raise holy heck about it when it happens so the schools respond accordingly.

    They view the school as a resume-builder for college… and bad high school grades are a killer for college admission.

    Our public schools are pretty much a creature of parents – not teachers.

    If we could agree on what a good teacher is and is not – define it as a measureable metric – we could then agree on who to keep and who to not keep and your friend Obama supports that approach also.

    He also wants a "race to the top" rather than the blame game slash and burn that the right wants.

    I'm coming to the conclusion that the right is all about blame of others an a refusal to take personal responsibility themselves.

    It's always the teachers fault or the middle east's fault, or Europe's fault or the liberal's fault.

    There is no positive agenda – only hate and discontent and the need to find the guilty and punish them.

    Show me how to IMPROVE the system without hunting down those you think are guilty of something.

    I just don't see it from you guys.

  68. Larry G Avatar

    Accurate – one path to improvement is known as Common Core and the NAEP is in compete support of that goal.

    Common Core is not some Federal top-down initiative. It was conceived and established by the National Governors Association and the Council of Chief State School Officers,

    The goal is a uniform set of curriculum standards so that a kid in 2nd grade in Wyoming whose dad moves to New Hampshire does not miss a beat in his academic efforts.

    We not only rank 29th in the world in academic achievement but every other country that bests us in the world – has a national curriculum and that curriculum has robust academic requirements EVEN for kids that are NOT on a college track because the global world we live in offers good paying jobs to non-college technically-skilled people also.

    In Europe and Japan, a technical career also requires a challenging academic curricula.

    In the US, a non-college track is essentially a throw-away.

    And here's the big problem.

    You might think that getting your old child educated is all you need to worry about but your kid is going to grow up to be taxed the bejesus out of to pay for the kids who did not get sufficient education to get a job that pays enough for their needs either as entitlements or incarceration.

    I believe the common core approach is one way to set a standard bar for all schools to meet and if that bar is the NAEP criteria for reading and math proficiency – all the better.

  69. The truth is that many parents do not want their kids to get bad grades

    =================================

    Thats what people don't understand about grades: they are not for the kids, they are for the parents.

    Scrap gradng along withthe rest of the system.

  70. The goal is a uniform set of curriculum standards so that a kid in 2nd grade in Wyoming whose dad moves to New Hampshire does not miss a beat in his academic efforts.

    =================================

    Aaargh.

    Another sure fire path to mediocrity.

  71. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Jim,
    Typically, your argument makes all sorts of assumptions that frankly can't stand up to logic.
    (1) Public unions are reponsible for bad teachers.
    (2) Therefore, public unions must represent most public school teachers.
    (3) Public unions are responsible for teachers getting off at 3 p.m. (when most stay until much later for sports, art, music, and into evenings and weekends at parents' events, contests, games, field trips, etc.)
    (4) Public unions are responsible for lazy teachers getting summers off, when, in fact, it is a U.S. practice common from the days farmers needed child labor. Is it the teachers' fault they only work nine months? Yes, according to Mr. Bacon, when many would prefer the higher pay of 12 month employment.
    (5) "Black" children are especially hurt by this web of corruption. This statement assumes that most "black" teachers, the kind most likely to teach "black" kids in "black" neighborhoods are especially incompetent. Jim, you are lucky you live in lilly-white Henrico.
    (6) Jim advertises this piece with a picture showing a "teacher" as an S&M sex goddess. (No, TMT, this pix is entirely Bacon's idea. I'm easy on such photos, but find this one offensive. Why? My own wife was laid off in August from her private school after 10 years there because of the economy. She had no union to protect her and she gets no severance and no other benefits. She's a damned good and hard-working teacher and I find it personally offensive to see her portrayed as some kind of slut — at least the way Mr.Bacon seems to conjure up female educators. Not funny, Jim.
    Peter Galuszka

  72. I don't think any of my teachers were ever unionized. Too long ago.

    Not being unionized didn't imrove them any. And I could se the problem as early as fourth grade.

    here we are fifty years later, ith the same problem, and no smarter.

    Guess it must be the unions.

  73. Larry G Avatar

    a uniform national curriculum is how 28 other countries do better than us academically.

    Of the 29 countries, we are the ONLY one without a national curriculum.

  74. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Peter, Typically, your argument makes no sense at all.

    (1) Public unions are reponsible for bad teachers. I didn't say they were "responsible for" bad teachers. The people who hire the bad teachers are responsible. I just said they defend bad teachers from getting fired.

    (2) Therefore, public unions must represent most public school teachers. What? Read this again. Does it make sense to even you?

    (3) Public unions are responsible for teachers getting off at 3 p.m. (when most stay until much later for sports, art, music, and into evenings and weekends at parents' events, contests, games, field trips, etc.) What? I didn't say anything like that. I think you're confusing someone else's comments with mine. Or hallucinating.

    (4) Public unions are responsible for lazy teachers getting summers off, when, in fact, it is a U.S. practice common from the days farmers needed child labor. Is it the teachers' fault they only work nine months? Yes, according to Mr. Bacon, when many would prefer the higher pay of 12 month employment. Huh? When did I complain about teachers getting summers off?

    (5) "Black" children are especially hurt by this web of corruption. This statement assumes that most "black" teachers, the kind most likely to teach "black" kids in "black" neighborhoods are especially incompetent. Jim, you are lucky you live in lilly-white Henrico. I don't assume anything about the race of the teachers who teach African-American children. I just state the facts — African-American kids significantly underperform in national tests. One way to improve the performance is to get rid of the worst teachers. You're the one saying they're "black," not me.

    By the way, Henrico County is hardly lily white. The county population is 25% African-American. What's the African-American population of Chesterfield?

    (6) Jim advertises this piece with a picture showing a "teacher" as an S&M sex goddess. (No, TMT, this pix is entirely Bacon's idea. I'm easy on such photos, but find this one offensive. Why? My own wife was laid off in August from her private school after 10 years there because of the economy. She had no union to protect her and she gets no severance and no other benefits. She's a damned good and hard-working teacher and I find it personally offensive to see her portrayed as some kind of slut — at least the way Mr.Bacon seems to conjure up female educators. Not funny, Jim. Lighten up, dude, you know very well that I'm not portraying your wife as a slut. She's a friend of mine, too.

    One more thing, the teacher in the photo is holding an apple, not whips and chains. Where did the S&M thing come from?

  75. Larry G Avatar

    Henrico
    Funding $8,656
    Per Pupil Expenditure 2008
    Demographics
    10% Student Poverty Rate 2008

    White Students 2008 47.6%
    African American 35.9%

    Achievement
    89% 4th Grade Reading 2008-09
    88% 4th Grade Math 2008

    Chesterfield

    Funding $9,025 Per Pupil Expenditure 2008

    Demographics
    7% Student Poverty Rate 2008

    White Students 60.7%
    African American 27.4%

    Achievement
    91% 4th Grade Reading 2008-09
    87%4th Grade Math 2008-09

    http://febp.newamerica.net/k12/va/5100840

    these are not bad number for either.

    The state average per pupil is over $11,000

    but it does look like Peter's county is more Lily than Jims

  76. In the letter I referred to earlier a citizen complained that local government didn't have MORE POWER. Not that they could not govern fairly, but that they did not have the power to govern more unfairly and more imperiously.

    Considering the biggest screw jobs I ever got was from local government, I can't agree with groveton.

  77. Oops, posted on the wrong thread.

  78. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    As a teacher, I think we are all skirting the biggest issue. While there are issues with unions, and there are bad teachers, neither of these is the biggest factor. Spending does matter, but this is not the biggest issue either. The biggest factor in determining student success is… wait for it… their homes. Students who have stable homes that provide adequate nurture and care, AND support and emphasze education have successful students. And this is not just poverty, but it is a factor.
    I have students who are in terrible condition when they arrive to school. There is little I can when they are not fed, have not slept, and no one cares if they did their homework or have a pecil to bring to school.
    And no one seems to care about this.

  79. Larry G Avatar

    we should all care about it because the kids themselves are innocent and have normal IQs and without help will grow up without a sufficient education to support themselves and they (an their kids) will require public assistance, welfare an entitlements – their whole life – and the cycle will repeat.

    I had mentioned earlier that a study was done to deduct from the overall achievement scores the ones from the economically disadvantaged and when you do that – the United States goes from 15th in international ranking to number 1 (on reading).

    that's a shocker to me.

    but it really does reveal why our entitlement system is getting out of control.

    As our friends the Republicans remind us ..when folks don't have jobs – they need entitlements but of course even in a good economy if you are functionally illiterate you may not get a job or even if you do – not enough to pay for you and your kids needs.

    Teachers are in a silent war now to try to figure out how to teach kids whose parents are basically AWOL… sometimes because the parents are having a hard time themselves and just don't have enough left over to share with their kids.

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