Virginia Ratifies!
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25 responses to “Virginia Ratifies!”
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Timely and profound, I feel compelled to read that book.
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And thus, the fighting began…
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It’s not exactly on point, but my favorite James Madison quote is from Federalist No. 62:
“It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be tomorrow.”
Followed by this, from Federalist No. 10:
“[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.” –James Madison, Federalist No. 10
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Humorous, in that there is no exact count of federal laws. At best, there are estimates.
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It reminds me of a passage from Abraham Lincoln’s 1838 speech to the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois: “If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time or die by suicide.”
Sadly, these days we seem determined to flirt with a variety of different ways to tempt national suicide.
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I am a fan of his comment in Federalist 51: “If men were angels, no government would be necessary.”
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The Virginia Convention has an interesting cast of characters. They represented the largest, most populous, and wealthiest state. Some came from far places such as Kentucky, Wheeling, and so on. The opposition or Anti Federalists would not give an inch unless Virginia demanded adding a Declaration of Rights prior to the Constitution’s ratification. Many who voted no were former officers of the Continental Army and they feared the centralized power of the Constitution. Those who voted no:
Patrick Henry
George Mason
James Monroe (surprise break from ally and proponent James Madison)
William Grayson (hero of the Battle of Monmouth)
Theodorick Bland (powerful leader of the Bland clan)
John Tyler Sr. (father of President Tyler)
Ben Harrison V (father of Pres. WH Harrison and great grandfather of
Pres B. Harrison
George Clay (first cousin of Henry Clay)
John Guerrant (my 6th great grandfather)Mr. Dick Halifax voted NO!
Issac Coles of Coles Ferry
George Carrington father of South Boston-
Yes, I realize that the delegates from my home county voted no. But, so did most of the delegates from rural areas and the “west” .
According to Ketcham, the opposition was not necessarily rooted in the demand for a bill of rights. Madison had already committed to that during his campaign to be elected a delegate to the convention. Rather, the objection was to the “consolidating” tendencies of the Constitution and the fear that it would foster tyranny.
One of the many surprising things I have learned is the key role played by the delegates from that part of Virginia that is now West Virginia. Very important to them was having access to the Mississippi River and the fear that Spain would would cut off their access. Madison was able to persuade them that a strong national government would be in the best position to protect their interests in regard to access to the Mississippi.
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Really interesting comments with the usual exception. What was the average age of the delegates?
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I could not find any reference to the average age. George Mason, at 63, was probably among the oldest and James Monroe, 30, was likely one of the youngest.
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That’s okay, I’ve got him blocked.
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I am sure they were like… “Don’t worry we can bail on this thing anytime we want…” Right…??
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9th?! Late to the party… as usual.
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Didn’t he also see a direct correlation between those with the most “skin in the game,” as it were, and the likelihood of wise and intelligent selections?
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By “skin” do you mean those with a fully vested interest or those only 3/5 vested?
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“Nancy Naive Steve Gillispie • 43 minutes ago • edited
By “skin” do you mean those with a fully vested interest or those only 3/5 vested?”Could you be anymore uneducated on the 3/5th compromise?
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Madison update from Fed 62
“The
internalinternet effects of a mutable policy are still more calamitous.” -
The “YES” votes at the Virginia Convention include some notable figures.
James Madison
Light Horse Harry Lee (Marse Robert’s father)
George Wythe (father of American Law)
Burwell Bassett (Martha Washington’s brother)
Bushrod Washington (Supreme Court Judge nephew of George inherited Mt. Vernon)
John MarshallNotable absence: Jefferson. Busy. Minister to France. He would have been useless at this point in his life. Failed governor. Grieving over his deceased wife. Complete state of melancholy. Paris was the only cure. Voted twice really. TJ had a steady correspondence with Monroe and Madison during this time. A silent vote by influence and mail. A no vote thru Monroe and a yes vote thru Madison.
The key man to ratification was Edmund Randolph. He was the chairman of the convention and therefore controlled the agenda and selected who could speak in discussion.
Henry and Mason felt they had Randolph as a supporter and ally. Betrayal! Randolph switches teams! He comes out in favor of the Constitution. Believed that Virginia was taking too long to make up it’s mind. Feared what would happen to Virginia if left out of the new national government. United enough support by steering a resolution on the next day, June 26th. That resolution proposed adding a “Declaration of Rights” at the first meeting of the newly elected Congress.
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Also TJ’s 2nd Cousin.
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The interplay of kinship amongst the 170 convention members can twist your mind into a knot!
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I do not like disagreeing with you, but Edmund Pendleton was the presiding officer of the ratifying convention. Ketcham describes how he shut down Patrick Henry at the very beginning when Henry challenged the legitimacy of the federal Constitutional Convention. However, Randolph indeed was a vital figure. He had headed the Virginia delegation to the Constitutional Convention, but had refused to sign the final document. He was governor in 1788 and well-respected. One of Madison’s greatest tasks was to delicately bring Randolph around to the federalist side. Once he succeeded in doing so, Randolph was a powerful voice in the debates urging ratification.
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No disrespect to Ketchum. Good book. The last word on Madison is by Irving Brant. 6 volumes. Here you will find the backstory of how Randolph lined up the votes from the authority of his chair. His stature among Virginians was much greater in 1788 than Madison’s.
Madison played a good hand behind the scenes during breaks in the taverns. His power of persuasion was in small groups and peppered with dirty jokes.
Ketchum’s weakness is discounting Madison’s modifications and editing of his papers late in life in a vain attempt to enhance his legacy. Brant is better at deciphering this tinkering.
I think if Henry and Mason had been a little younger and stronger in health they would have kept Randolph in their pocket.
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I was aware of Brand’s work, but I was not up to tackling a six-volume biography. Especially since I am now working my way through Max Farrand’s four-volume set of the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention.
In his preface, Ketcham acknowledges his debt to Brand. Maybe I will get to it someday. Sigh! So many books and so little time!
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Mr. Dick you have to read Ketchum’s biography on Will Rogers. It will make you grin ear to ear. Sooooo good.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I did not know that he had written that biography.
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