Why are Teachers Quitting? In Virginia Beach, It May Not Be “Mean Parents”
Share this article
ADVERTISEMENT
(comments below)
Comments
Comments
102 responses to “Why are Teachers Quitting? In Virginia Beach, It May Not Be “Mean Parents””
-
There are a number of reasons why teachers leave but wary of anecdotal stuff which seems to be a preferred way of “analyzing” these days. Pick a problem…lay out some data and not good poll data then claim it’s true across the board:
works like this:
“But 38% of Virginia Beach teachers – from grades K-12 – reported being concerned for their own safety in school; 60% for their students’ safety.
…..
Yet, the left attributes teacher resignations to “mean parents.”really undermines your credibility guy to make arguments like this. Everything you write downstream rightly deserves skepticism and doubt.
-
So….Larry piles on…which means the author is correct.
Haner is right about cross tabs of polls, but there is value. Meanwhile, Larry and Troll et al will insist to ignore what your eyes see…-
Walter, look at the full poll to which I provided a link. Steve did not.
-
I did look at the poll results linked and then I looked at VB school data. 5292 full time teachers and responses from roughly 1000 to 1200 which I have to think is pretty statistically significant…But trust Larry…Mr. SCIENCE! (But don’t challenge consensus, cuz consensus is PROOF!)
-
If someone wants to claim it’s that way across Virginia or Nationally, let’s see THAT data.
I just don’t buy taking one school and one poll from it and claiming it represents many more schools across Virginia.
Discipline and safety have been issues in many schools for some number of years. It’s not a new thing unless the claim is that it’s gotten worse. If so, let’s see THAT data and not just for one school but across the state.
Not science Walter. Just keeping to the truth.
You guys are more than allowed to have your perspective, your views, and opinions but not to claim they are facts – without something more than your beliefs.
Make an HONEST case. If this is a Virginia-wide problem at most all schools – then provide that level of data. Not one school then claim it’s a Virginia-wide pattern.
Not science Walter. Just simple and honest arguments.
-
“I just don’t buy taking one school and one poll from it and claiming it represents many more schools across Virginia.”
Perhaps we should demand the same elevated standards of proof that Larry demands of others. That way, we could ignore everything he has to say.
-
And meanwhile, you make assertions all the time on what you call here sketchy evidence. The sample size for VaBch schools is significant. So, likely a fair picture. Then he makes an inference that VaBch is generally perceived not to be the problem that other districts are, so could they be worse? And, does it indicate that maybe the standards are bad since they don’t work at VaBch. Instead of acknowledging those are fair, you shoot the messenger and denigrate the data. Ok, you go measure the crappy schools and I’ll make a bet – even after scrubbing the data to put lipstick on the pig, it will be even worse.
-
Actually, I questioned whether the experience of VB schools was similar to many other schools in Virginia and really nationally as the problem is nation-wide.
You say “crappy schools” and that does add to how teachers feel about their jobs.
Sherlocks claim seemed to be to imply that school safety and discipline were the primary reason and in fact, all the political drama was not even ongoing at the time the poll was conducted.
I think Sherlock basically and predictably tanked the issue in a partisan way by stirring the discipline/safety pot and dissing the “mean parents” aspect.
Haner pointed out, and I agree, we still don’t know ALL the reasons teachers are leaving because to this point the polls taken don’t really address the political aspect effects on public school teachers.
Suffice to say, on top of the other issues, it certainly did not help and may have been the proverbial straw on the camels back.
-
Oh…mean words…saying something that sucks…sucks…is the reason!
The public school system is badly broken. And all of the good lefty ideas to fix them are because of the good lefty ideas that have already been imposed.
Stay on mission. Teach the courses, not the social dysfunction cr@p.
And since you want to encourage social dysfunction, and I don’t, allow real school choice. You can be happy with your Left wing anything goes school, and I can be happy with mine that teaches and reinforces my values.
-
-
-
-
My complaint is that he takes one specific school and claims it represents schools and teachers everywhere.
That’s taking an anecdotal event and misrepresenting it as a pattern/trend for all schools – without any more than a local issue.
Get your head out and read the full poll at the link, Larry.
It is not “anecdotal “ that 38% of these women – and like in every district they are mostly women – reported that they were afraid in their workplace.
Now try to imagine why they might resign. Try even to imagine why they might not resign.
Thank you.
-
Did it say of whom they were afraid? Students? Administration? Or, parents? VB is a nice place compared to 5 of the other 7 cities.
-
And their schools are not what they were 5-10 years ago.
-
What is? Certainly not me, doubtfully not you.
-
Are you old enough to remember shows like “Welcome Back Cotter” or ” To Sir with Love” that documented “discipline” and related chaos in schools more than 50 years ago?
It’s not a new thing at all.
Is it worse now? Show me the data to back up that premise.
-
“Is it worse now? Show me the data to back up that premise.”
Perhaps we should demand the same elevated standards of proof that Larry demands of others. That way, we could ignore everything he has to say.
-
I’m not the one making such false claims based on largely anecdotal data.
BR has, for as long as I can remember, been fundamentally opposed to the concept of publics education and hostile to teachers and administrators.
It’s not a “bug”, it’s a feature!
-
“Anecdotal data.” You really are disengaged from reality.
These were the results from questions that are part of an annual formal statewide survey from which Virginia Beach reported the discipline-related results from teachers in its division.
This article was about Virginia Beach. Thus the title of the article. Give it up.
-
” Yet, the left attributes teacher resignations to “mean parents.”
just VB?
-
-
Very true. 44.2% of VB students were classified as economically disadvantaged in 2021-22. That’s up from 33.3% in 2012-13.
So you do correlate school safety with the percent of economically disadvantaged?
Please stop, Larry, I’m begging you.
and back at ya guy. take a break.
You have the patience of Job.
The gravest disadvantage is coming from one parent homes.
so those kids should be re-directed to private voucher schools to get fixed?
Students.
It’s anecdotal in that you took one specific situation and claimed it represented all teachers everywhere.
nope.
-
“represented all teachers everywhere”.
Read the title of the article, Larry. See “Virginia Beach”?
You really are so ubiquitously wrong that it is a full time job correcting you.
-
” Yet, the left attributes teacher resignations to “mean parents.”
did you only mean the “left” in VB?
Do you know the answers to how teachers feel about threats from the right over CRT , “grooming”, etc?
If you asked that question and got the answer, you might know more than you do now and could perhaps opine with more knowledge than current.
-
What is it you think they fear…?? How much do guns play into that fear, do you think? For that matter how much do you think events like Uvalde contribute to an exodus of teachers from the profession?
As I have mentioned on other posts, be wary about poll results without seeing as much of the document as you can. To offer the percentages of respondents agreeing with this or that assertion, without the percentage of them taking a different or contrary opinion, is useless. What you see above is classic cherry picking. Perhaps he can give us a link or scan the document.
-
Cherry picking, making things up, jumping to conclusions and creating straw men are his skills. Without them he would be rhetorically bereft.
-
Im game to critique James but I’m missing what you are implying here. What was cherry picked, made up or assuming about this article?
-
See Haner’s comment I was responding to on cherry picking and any of Sherlocks postings for the the rest and more.
-
-
-
There’s a tonal that’s deafening about this place! Sniff, sniff. Wait, is that me?
-
The link is there, Steve. Has been since I posted it. You just missed it. It is the first link in the article under the word “copy”. But thanks for the kind note.
-
Perhaps I missed it. But I looked pretty hard..
-
Well were there questions about parents being mean or otherwise that are contributing to teachers leaving?
It’s like stocks. There’s a boatload of reasons why people sell, but only one for why they buy. There’s lots of reasons why teachers quit their jobs, but only one for why they took it in the first place.
-
What is that “one” reason?
-
Love of the idea… bettin’ it sours a bit quickly though.
-
The 800 lb gorilla is a lack of self discipline and a lack of preparation on the part of the failed parents who aren’t teaching their kids how to conduct themselves before entering the school system. Teachers have been bitch slapped for decades when they call a spade a spade but their hands are tied when they send disruptive and sometimes violent kids to the principals offices who in too many cases already have too many poorly parented kids to deal with in the first place. We haven’t even touched on oversized class sizes, emotional stress, overwhelming expectations, lack of respect for teachers by rotten parents and their kids, bloated arrogant ineffective administrations, 12-16 hour days and often weekends.. and ridiculous woke curriculum.
-
I think you meant “teachers” have been slapped…
Still time to fix it, and just we two will know.
-
I stand corrected and the correction has been made, thank you.
-
Other commenters have picked up on this finding from the survey, but I want to highlight it:
Cell phones do not belong in the classroom.
-
Yes, Ya’ll could actually write a blog post on this one issue but I fear you’d color it as left vs right again!
-
Neither do AR-15s. Unfortunately, about the 3rd or 4th school shooting those pesky parents began insisting that they have an opportunity to say “good-bye” to their kids.
-
yes. Ironic that one of the biggest impediments to banning cell phones at schools – is the parents.
-
That is indeed the crux of the issue. Well, really it is more about after school scheduling in real time but this too. What is JAB’s suggested solution?
-
non-public, alternative schools where any kid who does not behave is booted….
right?
-
Yeah, that’ll work. Like firing a postman for exhibiting violent tendencies…
-
Three days of the Condor. I really like it even though it was somewhat panned. The end was great!
-
pretty intense scene..
-
-
-
Thinking of the few things that have gotten better, when was the last time we heard of a mailman going “postal”? knock on wood
-
-
Well, he does support that but what is his suggested solution to the issue of phones in the classroom where they really shouldn’t be but a demand by parents that they be allowed to communicate with their kids in real time? Do private schools also face this issue? Maybe schools should just tell the parents to go pound sand and go back to the phone messages at the office system. As NN pointed out, the first shooting at such a school will nix that across the board. It is a quandary and JAB needs to offer a real solution, imo.
You ignore the answers to the questions in which 38% of teachers expressed concern for their safety in their workplace.
Three direct questions for you.
1. Did you ever work in a workplace in which you felt unsafe?
2. If so, did you stay there?
3. If not, would you have remained in a workplace in which you felt unsafe?
Thanks for your time in answering this short survey.
-
POLL: Do you sometimes drive in situations that you consider unsafe?
Have you stopped driving as a result?
How do you think truck drivers, cab drivers, ER room nurses, 7-11 clerks, police and fire would answer that question?
How about School Board members these days?
Do you think they would “remain” as you ask if they felt “unsafe”?
-
The questions were for Eric, Larry. I would not have asked them to you with a gun at my head.
-
oh please!
-
So, you wouldn’t have felt safe?
-
-
-
What we don’t have, data-wise, is if this is better or worse than before the policies you are criticizing were enacted… or even no change…
Edit: I will note that when it applies to student safety, the data seems to suggest a no change status… this would then suggest that is true for teachers… in VB anyway… if you want to apply this survey to the entire state teacher recent exodus issue then, your theory appears to fail… if there is no change in workplace safety concerns, they are not the cause of increases in teachers leaving the profession…
You haven’t even establish correlation yet you have jumped to cause.
Finally, as I said above, how much do recent school shootings factor into these numbers and the increase in teachers leaving schools…??
To answer your questions:
1. Yes
2. I did not know I had a choice/options
3. Today, I would stay to make changes so the workplace is safe for all. We recently had a fatality at our company and that is exactly what I have been doing since.
I agree that is a fairly good sample, but am not sure how it was obtained. Random? Filled out by those who were motivated? It however is not an exit poll of people who have retired early or quit, just a sample of current staff, so may have little bearing on decisions to leave. It should give the leadership reason to wonder if the new discipline approach is working. That they took the survey is a good sign, really. Very possible to cherry pick the same survey and find positive results if they want to, though.
The cell phone questions are fascinating. Look at elementary vs high school.
-
Let me provide the best example of why 3rd party that I can. My company is an employee owned C corporation. The company president discovered that he and 4 or 5 other large shareholders could save a ton in taxes by becoming an S corporation. However, the law requires 100% affirmative of the shareholders to do so.
He conducted his own verbal poll before proceeding at the shareholder meeting and there was only one “no” vote. Confident that he could change that vote, he started the lawyers on the task. When the lawyers conducted the same poll on conditions of anonymity, there were 5, including a 10% shareholder.
-
The VBPS leadership took the survey to assess school climates.
The survey was professionally designed in order to give them the information they sought. Otherwise what would have been the point?
The questions were taken from the Virginia School Survey of Climate and Working Conditions that is administered annually statewide.
The purpose of the survey is to provide schools with information on school climate, safety, and working conditions in order to maintain a safe and orderly school environment conducive to learning.
The survey measures student and teacher/staff perceptions of school rules and discipline, teacher-student relationships, student engagement in school, and the extent of bullying and teasing at school.
The survey is currently a component of the annual school safety audit which school divisions are required to submit to the Virginia Center for School and Campus Safety (VCSCS), according to § 22.1-279.8.B of the Code of Virginia.
Those two surveys/audits were combined in 2021.
These results are from the teacher section of the 2020 Virginia School Survey of Climate and Working Conditions (SY 2019-20). That is important of course because every published survey thereof was impacted by COVID.
I used the data that the school division gathered for the same purpose the school division gathered it.
The comments on here about the potential flaws in the survey are aspirational from those hoping to discount them.
As usual.
When the facts do not work in favor of their opinions, they challenge and discount the facts. Human nature.
But here that is amplified by the access of angry dogmatics to the public forum of BR.
-
This doesn’t answer things. For example, “Who took the questions from the larger professionally designed survey?”
Was THIS VB survey done professionally? You understand that really good professionally done surveys include questions that are designed to self-validate. If you take a broad survey questionaire and simply use a subset of the questions on it, you may not get the same results on those questions, even using the same respondents.
Do you have a link to the creds for this specific survey?
-
and where are the poll questions about “mean parents”?
-
I looked high and low for the full 2020 statewide survey and could not find it online. What I know is that the questions forwarded by the VBPS administration to the person who filed a FOIA request, which is the provenance of the survey subset at the link, were a subset (addressing school discipline) of the questions and answers taken from the Virginia School Survey of Climate and Working Conditions that is administered annually statewide. That subset was provided because it was what was requested by the FOIA.
-
Yeah no real help then. Salt, a very large grain.
-
much more succinct version of my long-winded view.
yes – whenever Sherlock posts these days, it’s jaundiced eye time. Not as bad as Bader yet, but trending that way.
-
-
-
The link was a response to a FOIA request.
Virginia Beach Public Schools protects the results of the School Survey of Climate and Working Conditions from its citizens like the crown jewels from thieves.
-
I’ll bet they do, lest they be misinterpreted.
-
-
It IS the kind of poll that an administration might use in concert with other data to better understand their own workplace climate.
But. as you point out, it’s not definitive data from people who actually do leave and upon which to view the larger issue of many teachers in many schools, across Va and the nation – retiring. It’s totally inappropriate and really, misleading for that.
As I said earlier. It’s basically anecdotal data for one school not high quality data from schools across the region or state.
Sherlock has IMO taken a tiny amount of “local data” from one school and weaved it into a claim about teachers in general leaving the field across the state.
It’s a nice conservative fairy tale per usual but not much more.
And when this is done, (and there are some others here also) – I develop a jaundiced eye to the content and claims of future blog posts. A hefty grain of salt and an expectation of more of the same.
And folks like Bader and Kerry do develop a reputation with regard to their credibility IMO.
And to the credit of others here, who also recognize this behavior and call it out.
-
It is the survey of the entire school division, Larry. Again, try to keep up.
-
Even for the entire division , it is not the the region, state or national and inappropriate to use in that way.
I’m keeping up guy. How about you do a better job also?
-
First you said it was the survey of one school.
When disabused of that notion, you claim that the survey was not taken across the region or state. That is also wrong. The questions are from the Virginia School Survey of Climate and Working Conditions.
See my response to Steve Haner above.
Your complaint that school climate surveys, if not the exact one used in Virginia, are not taken nationally is also false. Every state administers a version.
Go for worldwide. You have a chance on that one.
-
What I pointed out was the use of a narrow-scope poll to claim it represents a much wider issue.
I did not say there were not other climate surveys. I said use them if you’re claiming wider scope instead of more narrow scope polls to claim wider scope effects.
And where are the questions about other things that affect “climate” LIKE the politics of CRT and “grooming”?
Discipline is not the only issue.
-
Wrong again. Read my article. Point out where I said or implied the Virginia Beach survey “represents a much wider issue”.
-
“Yet, the left attributes teacher resignations to “mean parents.”
what did you really mean?
only the “left” in VB?
-
Actually the 8 liberals on the VB School Board have referred to concerned parents as mean, or worse. Conservative parents aren’t the only ones who are speaking up at School Board meetings about the issues this poll covers. Many are there from both sides of the aisle because they are concerned about their kids and grandkids being thrown to the wolves so to speak and the MANY teachers who fear being outspoken about what they know is failed policy coming from the liberal majority running the school board.
-
And if Sherlock would have said “mean parents in VB” it would have been better but then folks would also notice that no such poll questions about “mean parents” were given and so Sherlock just took it upon himself to “explain” what the poll really meant.
So if you want to REALLY talk about teacher resignations , don’t you need to include the current political environment on the poll to truly understand the issues that lead to resignations?
Of course you do unless you really don’t want to know and just substitute your own beliefs – pro forma on BR sometimes.
Shouldn’t we want to know how teachers feel about the current political environment and the effect of it on them staying on as teachers?
-
-
Larry, perhaps you could show us the unimpugnable data demonstrating reasons for the surge in teacher resignations for reasons different from what Sherlock describes — such as, for instance, mean right-wing parents making their lives miserable. Please make sure the data hews to the standards of proof that you demand of Sherlock.
Polls like this should be large enough, blind, and with mandatory 100% response for exactly the reason you stated, biased response. Also, I’d avoid “exit” polling. Some people will avoid bridge-burning, and others will vent their spleens. Either way it skews the results. Poll your current employees on conditions and use an experienced 3rd party polling agency with the skills to avoid leading questionnaires.
If there is a question like,
Q3 How would you describe the effectiveness of discipline practices at your school in reducing student misbehavior?
then there should also be something akin to
Q3* How would you describe the effectiveness of remediation practices at your school for improving student behavior?
There should be some consistency in the results of those two questions. Remember, the question begs the answer sometimes.
-
Yes. Point is, there is a right way to do it and recognize when the poll is not much less draw inferences that are not valid.
-
Yes, there is a “right way” for Sherlock do it. Fortunately for you, that right way applies only to conservatives critiquing the school systems.
-
It’s wrong for left or right to do what both you and Sherlock do when you take anecdotal data and claim it represents a much wider scope.
If you want to compare and contrast teacher resignations across the state – do it right with good poll data gathered statewide instead of focusing only on discipline in one school district and implying that discipline is the reason for resignations.
It’s a statewide trend and it coincides with attacks from the right on teachers and schools for bogus issues like CRT and “grooming”, etc.
Ask THOSE questions of teachers along with the discipline questions!
-
There is that false “anecdotal data” claim again. Try something else.
-
Same thing in response to the anecdotal in the article?
same recommendation:
ALSO ASK the teachers questions about the politization to get real answers to compare and contrast with “discipline” BEFORE you conclude it’s only about discipline and not “mean parents”?
-
-
“coincides with attacks from the right on teachers and schools for bogus issues like CRT and “grooming”, etc.”
Those “attacks from the right”, disguised as parents complaining at school board meetings, did not begin to happen until the school board meeting started to be open to the public again in the summer of 2021. On the back of that we elected Glenn Youngkin governor in the fall of 2021.
Did you connect the fact that this statewide survey of teachers was taken in late 2019 and early 2020?
That was before the George Floyd killing that resulted in the series of major changes to school syllabi and teacher training across the state and nation.
Did you connect the time sequences?
Clearly not. I honestly would have been surprised if you did.
-
Did you ignore your own question about timelines when you brought up the earlier poll data with respect to CURRENT teacher resignations?
I’d say that’s a bit convoluted also.
but intended that way?
so local poll verses state-wide effects and 2019-2020 poll and claims with respect to current teacher resignations?
sounds pretty messed up to me but not unexpected.
do better.
-
See my response to Steve Haner above.
Interesting, but perhaps not applicable to the statewide survey of school climate that is conducted annually.
Pollsters tell us that requiring 100% response is a mixed bag for survey quality. Mandatory response is particularly controversial on long surveys like Virginia School Survey of Climate and Working Conditions.
-
I was not clear. My mistake. If you poll all employees, you won’t need a 100% response. OTOH, if you are going to select a random sampling, then getting a 100% response is best.
Of course, if you’re going to apply the survey beyond a school district, then you probably cannot poll all employees.
The pros know how to do this. This survey was district level, but I question the creds of who developed the questionnaire and if they know how to conduct a proper poll. This isn’t an easy task that anyone can do properly.
-
Your approach described here is a good one.
When you question the credibility of who developed the questionnaire, I have answered somewhere in this avalanche of comments that the questions are a subset of the questions in the annual Virginia School Survey of Climate and Working Conditions developed and deployed by the Virginia Department of Education.
Virginia Beach Public Schools administration makes it difficult to get the data from that survey for its division.
The link I provided is to a FOIA response by VBPS to a request for information about school discipline questions and answers in that survey. That is why the response is truncated to provide just that data.
My approach to this column was to report those results for Virginia Beach for two reasons: (1) I live there; and (2) as I wrote, it is not the first place to come to mind when thinking about school discipline problems.
It was designed specifically not to look at the results in inner cities so that suburban citizens could feel good about their own schools.
It is a first in a series. I will provide other perspectives of inner city and statewide results in those future articles.
-
speaking of schools and teachers and how to operate:
Yep — in the lockers in high school from opening to closing bell….
This is another useless exercise, as nobody has found real data on why teachers seem to be leaving more rapidly than workers in other fields, making it possible for ideologues to pretend they know and create billy clubs. The turnover may not be different than with other employers. Look at the airline personnel issues! (Bacon and Sherlock will blame that on bad behavior, too.)
I stand by an earlier statement that a few interviews with HR directors would be more useful, but I ain’t taking the time because I really don’t care. SCC came out with its wind ruling Friday and my thoughts now in the drafting phase will not appear here first.
-
I expect a windy response soon.
-
re: ” … nobody has found real data on why teachers seem to be leaving more rapidly than workers in other fields, making it possible for ideologues to pretend they know and create billy clubs. ”
indeed.
Why get to the bottom of it when the institution needs to be torn down? Let it burn!
I have created my own version of the 1040 by selecting certain lines and calculations. It will be just as good as the IRS form, produce the same results, and can be filled out in under 10 minutes by anyone with a 6th grade education. It includes 5 Schedules including D and C.
Anyone want to use it?
See what I mean Captain about professionally done surveys and using a subset from a professionally done survey?
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.