The Trumpification of Bacon’s Rebellion
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82 responses to “The Trumpification of Bacon’s Rebellion”
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I notice that Dick did not bring up the fact that anyone who disagrees with the left-wing positions, such as by wanting immigration laws enforced or that there should be admission tests for TJ, is generally branded as racist. We read “Don’t Say Gay” as a label for a law that says kids below 4th grade should not be presented with sexual materials in school.
Like most things in life, this is a two-way street.
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I agree that the term “racist” is thrown around too easily. However, it is not the same as coming up with a specific derogatory nickname for specific individual.
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Yes. name calling often degenerates to personal attacks… from one individual to another individual.
There are a number of folks in BR – a half dozen or more , give or take, who NEVER engage in this kind of speech – to their credit IMHO.
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… it is not the same as coming up with a specific derogatory nickname for specific individual.
I agree. I think it’s worse.
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I don’t see them called “racists” usually. What I DO SEE is folks with conservatives positions CLAIM they are being called racists. But by whom? Often seems to be some imaginary tormentor.
It’s almost a projection.
Further , even folks on the right, just those on the right, don’t agree about what to do about immigration.
And truly, folks one left who advocate changes to TJ admissions – they are called racists…. by the right. Right?
But what Dick is talking about here in BR, is when the author STARTS OUT with pejoratives and name calling in the original blog post – which has become frequent with one or two exceptions, Dick and Haner and one or two others – for others, words like ‘leftists’, “woke” and worse have become the norm and comments on the blog post follow suite.
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Frankly, I can live with Leftie and Rightie, conservative and liberal. IMO, woke is a code term employed as a mere substitute for snowflake and PC. They’re not too offensive but are representations of an inability to critique in a rational fashion. Their use says more about the poster than the objects.
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I object to snowflakes. It’s clearly misused. Basically white and can’t take heat describes one side quite well, just not the correct side.
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snowflake also implies uniqueness “i’m special”
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Believe me, you are. When they made you they threw away the mould, but it grew back.
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Dick, thank you for addressing this problem. The decline in civil discussion and debate is doing long term damage to our country. We can witness that every day through social media, TV, and unfortunately our political system.
The two sets of comments below sadly just want to make it the other side rather than recognize that we have a serious problem that goes well beyond Bacon”s Rebellion.
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because that’s how the other side operates. A ministry of truth tells you a page out of Soviet Russia, East Germany, North Korea, Nazi Germany …
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I’m not sure what point you are trying to make but if we asked ourselves whether we are trying to score points or have an impact the quality of discourse should improve.
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Not when the responses are only feelings not facts.
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Good grief!!!! Ministry of Truth appeared in a Tweet by the actor James Woods just a few days ago following the DHS announcement of a disinformation board. Righties are so plugged in to their networks!!!! Amazing.
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I didn’t get it from there. I got it from the Totalitarian govts because that’s what I’ve read. There is also a Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice in some Middle Eastern countries that is close to the same idea. I did a check for those 3 words in what I read and only DeSantis has those 3 words mentioned in quotation marks with it. Considering your last 3 exclamation point sentence, it could be true of progressives, but you do not mention them.
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The ‘Ministry of Truth’ (or ‘Minitrue’ in Newspeak) was part of the totalitarian government described by George Orwell in his novel 1984, which was published in 1949.
Tens of millions of people besides James Woods are quite familiar with the term.
In fact, it was the first thought I had when I first read about the new “Disinformation Governance Board”, and the only “network” I’m ever plugged into is BR.
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“The two sets of comments below sadly just want to make it the other side rather than recognize that we have a serious problem that goes well beyond Bacon”s Rebellion.”
I’m afraid you need to be more specific than just “two posts below” since the display order of the posts is independent and the choice of each observer.
You, for example, may be viewing the comments in “oldest first” whereas your reader could be viewing in one of the other two orders.
This could cause the wrong person to become defensive and lash out with a stream of pejoratives, and other unpleasantries.
My word, it could unleash a veritable war of thermonuclear psycho babble.
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Haha the media is largely responsible for this beast. The sooner we bring about the demise of these institutions the better. Fortunately the corporate press will die off w/ the boomers.
Dick is right. The use of pejoratives adds nothing to the quality of discourse. I myself have used one or more of the terms he lists on occasion, and I’ll confess that I sometimes find the more creative pejoratives to be amusing (when applied to the “other guys”). But as publisher of the blog, I’m supposed to set the tone. And I do try to do that.
Insults never won anyone over to one’s way of thinking. The best put down is to demonstrate with facts and logic, not pejoratives or ad hominem attacks, the vacuousness, hypocrisy or ignorance of the other fellow for all to see.
My only quibble with Dick’s post is that the insults and ad hominems come from all sides of the political spectrum. Everyone needs to behave better.
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agree
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Your comments go further than mine; I was just focusing on the nicknames. But, I concur wholeheartedly with the larger point.
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Thank you, both of you, for the sentiments in this post. The fundamental difference between reasoned debate and ad hominem was pounded into my head by a college professor of rhetoric years ago and it’s a lesson in how to think (and how to get along with people) that everyone should learn. Obviously, many have not. Too many folks today are incapable of discourse without that undertone of snide and snarky put-down so essential to both extremes of political “debate” today. At least you try to make this forum the exception.
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Wait! Can I direct your attention to your last post above, or below, depending on your choice of sort? Nonsense indeed.
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Dick, You are absolutely correct. You do have choices. If the readers and commenters can’t appreciate your work (for free) and long experience, quit or cut down your profile. In the last three years or so, BR has been taken over by lobbyists and culture warriors. This ad hominem business is total bullshit. If you question a source, it’s an attack. If they rip you apart personally, it is not. Time to move on. I have done that in part. I miss the old policy-driven BR and I have been contributing for about 15 years.Jim Bacon could do more to police this but does not.
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I’m neither. Just a taxpayer who’s fed up. The fact is I’ve seen more ad hominem’s on the progressive side than this side. There’s a difference between slips now and then and a pattern.
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“Absolutely” is going a tad far. But the droog who harassed you seems to have vanished.
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How many times did you call Donald Trump a racist with no backup? How many unsubstantiated insults did you hurl at the president of the United States?
As I commented previously, when you start a bar fight you have to expect to get hit back. Anything less is pure cowardice.
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By the way, the old policy-driven BaconsRebellion was as boring as watching paint dry. Some weeks there were only 3 articles published – all by Jim Bacon. I notice that you had no objections to the culture wars when it was you and your ilk insulting Donald Trump. But now that you have a senile leader in the White House it’s time for decorum.
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And like I said, in my view, far more folks on the right have claimed that they have been called racists than the left actually called them.
Look through this blog and see if you can find someone calling someone else a racist…. won’t say never but it’s pretty rare.
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In this blog, I wholeheartedly agree from the comments I read. I do not recall ever being called a racist.
But there are many, many on the left who go after conservatives or anyone challenging them for any number of things, calling them racists, white supremist’s, etc. I read about it all the time from varying sources.
Here is one of many examples:
https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/13/loudoun-county-mom-targeted-by-left-wing-activists-for-fighting-against-racist-curriculum/
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I agree with Dick that civility has been in the decline (which is not necessarily new–it waxes and wanes throughout history, depending on the time period and context).
I also agree that name calling and personal attacks diminish intellectual discourse.
I do, however, have to point out the irony in the title, specifically the word “Trumpification.” Trump was not the first person to call people names on social media. At most he following and elevating the trend of uncivil discourse. Using written word to score points with those who agree with him, maximize irritation those who don’t through insult rather than argument, and probably make himself feel better. . .almost like coining a term using the name of the former president to describe the decline in political discourse.
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The word “trumpery” has existed long before the family name.
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I suspect it’s related to the massive ass pounding the lower and middle class has been taking the last couple decades.
TY, Dick. Indeed, there are a few posters who seem unable to control their keyboards and resort to name calling as some substitute for debate. What they offer as clever polemic is inanity and ignorance. The name calling is a type of “beat down” encouraged by the former President for which he promised to pay the legal costs of the beaters. Let’s see what you are called today.
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Who? Me?
TY?
Which is worse, blatant, in your face pejoratives and ad hominem or not-so-subtle pejoratives and ad hominem thinly disguised as so-called journalism? I say take the gloves off and show what you truly are made of.
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I actually prefer the latter. I love that sensation of waking up in the middle of the night and thinking “Hey! Wait a minute…”
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The blog’s the thing, wherein we can examine the conscience of the kings. The choice is not binary. The challenge is to persuade or parse; not to curse the darkness.
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The blog’s the thing, wherein we can examine the conscience of the kings. The choice is not binary. The challenge is to persuade or parse; not to curse the darkness.
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For the first time in history, I agree with you.
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there really is no difference – the motives and intent are exactly the same. Some folks just think they are clever about how they do it – in their own minds of course.
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So, the underlying etymology of Nancy, dim. for Agnes, brings us to “chaste, pure; guiltless, morally upright.” Nonsense indeed!
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Say what?! Why you, uh,… lemme think of something!
Oh, wait. “Dim.” Abbreviation of diminutive! Not dim, as in bulb. Never mind.
“chaste, pure; guiltless, morally upright.” Nonsense indeed! “. Nonsense?! Just plain naive.
Where’s Matt?
I beg to differ. There is a difference between a pejorative Nickname and an ad hominem attack.
I refer to Ralph Northam as Gov Coonman Blackface to convey my opinion of him. Everyone knows he is the one in blackface and that his nickname was coonman. Was it for that or for hunting raccoons? He knows. So I wish to convey I have no respect for his lying, and then his virtue signaling to do all things BLM in the hope that it would buy him atonement. (I also suspect it was his to be wife in the Klan outfit and that is why he reversed from Friday night on Saturday morning).
SlowJoe (always with a W) conveys the truly cognitively impaired, corrupt grifter who presently holds (occupies?) the office of President.
I think I invented “Tall Man Bad” as a tongue in cheek reference to what appears to be Youngkin Derangement Syndrome among Va Dems.
Isn’t the title “Trumpification” what you supposedly decry? (Assuming it is your title)
What were you trying to convey with the term? Were you trying to convey a coarseness in political speech? I have no problem with that. I would challenge that it is uniquely Trumpy…
I think what troubles Lefties (is that OK to use as shorthand?) about the Orange Man is that he doesn’t engage in political speak, saying platitudes that don’t quite mean what people think they mean – he says what he means and means what he says – he speaks like a businessman.
So, I do not believe pejorative nicknames are “ad hominem” – they are shorthand, and it makes for reading more exciting than National Review or New Republic or any of the horrible turgid academic literature of word salads being put out.
Nicknames – OK
ad hominem attacks – not OK
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You make Dick’s case. Polemics not facts score points, as I said earlier, but they don’t inform or persuade.
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I disagree. And that is OK. When I refer to anything here, I don’t just call a name. I explain my point. If we have to abandon all shorthand, clear communication might become a lot harder. Is it OK to say Leftists? How about Trumpists? They are both shorthand. When someone from the Left side says “You Trumpists…” I have been given a signal about the worldview behind the upcoming comment. It doesn’t hurt my feelings.
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Considering not all conservatives would be “Trumpists” (such as the never Trumpers), it is inaccurate as best. Shapiro being one of the biggest media people I can think of.
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Yes. It is shorthand. And an answer could be, “What do you mean by …Trumpists or Leftists or Never Trumpers? And even then could have further definition required as we get into specific issues. But, for me, I see it as conveying a number of “givens” in the categorization.
I was not offended by “Trumpification.”
I would not be offended by racist or white supremacist or Nazi as I know they are untrue.
Now, if you are trying for suasion, maybe you would avoid a pejorative. On the other hand, if you think something is evil…like let’s say abortion…then maybe you need to say it. Different people “speak” differently. I trust the free speech of all. And don’t come in and say “So you can shout fire in a crowded theater?” (And you can if there is a fire and immediate action is needed, but you would have to weigh whether it is speed or orderliness, etc. Do the best you can in the emergency.)
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Shorthand is and can be misleading. If you want to communicate you have to make sure that the reader understands your point. Do you consider all Ds as leftists and Rs as Trumpets?
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No I don’t consider all Ds as Leftists or Rs as Trumpists. There are some here who I imagine generally vote R and despise Trump. Some seem RINOish. Not sure if there are any all in Trump types. On the Left side, the spectrum seems a little narrower. And shorthand can be misunderstood. But…I think I have a pretty good feel for most commenters here. Most. Not all.
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Funny that Dick’s new found desire for civility occurred after the end of the Trump Administration.
People who start bar fights but insist on peace are cowards.
Time for this blog’s libtwits to take the same kind of verbal beatdown they administered during the Trump Administration.
After 4 years of Senile Joe maybe a truce can then be called.
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IMHO, there was no where near the name-calling and vitriol prior and you can check that in this blog.
But even if there was and I disagree, where does this name-calling and vitriol lead ? The idea of debates on the merits just degenerates into name calling and personal attacks. Is that what you support? Apparently as it is in your current response and most of your recent.
You’re a grown man and you do this? This is what you stand for now, guy?
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In the mid-80s, I went to the library at ODU to do some research on work I was doing for the Cruise Missile Lab at JHU APL. After pulling a book or two for checking out and xeroxing bits and pieces of others, I went to the periodical section and stood before the shelves of IEEE journals. For those unfamiliar, it’s a whole damned wall in a room of more than 100′ in length 8′ high. There are other shelves of other scientific journals. Less impressive today with the cloud, and all, I’m sure.
I slid my finger down the spines of one set of journals to Sept. 1982, and pulled the one specific volume of one society’s journal and opened to the page of my first publication. By that time, I had had half dozen more in other journals, but this was my first. I stood flipping the dozen pages that represented a year’s worth of work and then stared down the wall at the rest of the journals. It’s a humbling moment.
The way we fling self-proclaimed expert opinion around on subjects of race, CRT, education, charter schools, traffic jams on I-95, etc., etc., after reading some bloggist is anything but a humble display of knowledge or debate. It should be downright embarrassing.
We would be far more civil if we remembered that.
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geeze NN, that’s about as un-snarky as can be…. 😉
Bless me Father, for I have sinned….
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Yes, indeed. It is helpful to the blog discussion when folks indicate IMO or IMHO to remind readers. Unfortunately, in the culture and political spheres, all opinionators are self-nominated research scientists and engineers promoting their expertise.
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Some more than others.
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The use of IMO or IMHO is redundancy. Unless someone buttresses his assertion with some logic, is own research, or reference to some other research, I assume that the assertion is the writer’s opinion, and nothing more.
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No one need read a 100′ wall of journals to feel entitled to express an opinion. You’ve proved that many times.
The instant I saw the article title I immediately knew Dick was whining … whoops I mean wrote it.
“The subsequent resort to name-calling by some participants on this blog has been distressing. ” You’ve never objected before to all the things the leftists/progressives have done. Only now that your side isn’t on the up are you saying something.
“One aspect that attracted me to Bacon’s Rebellion a little more three years ago was the civility of the discourse and the willingness to engage in reasoned discussion and debate. ” The folks I’ve blocked on here all have one thing in common: progressives/leftists. We don’t get civility of discourse and we get some completely ‘out of touch with reality or education on a subject’ comments/ideas.
Free speech is free speech Dick. Your side is not a moral authority (allowing and hiding child rape, kiddie porn, infanticide, etc. never will convince folks of any moral authority) and will never be.
Get used to the strike back.
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I am not talking about objecting to policies. That is one of the hallmarks of this blog. And I have done my share of objecting to policies advocated by both Democrats and Republicans. I have never contended that my “side” (whatever that is) is the moral authority. But objecting and advocating can be done without utilizing insulting nicknames.
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Problem is you waited until now to say something, so your complaints fall on deaf ears.
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Dick flat out your side, want it to or not, has indicated it has the moral authority to do so. The outrage on having free speech curtailed is pretty obvious. I disagree with stuff openly and have had a handful of R’s work to shut me up and retaliate. All the other years, its been leftist/progressive.
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I might agree re BR, but Trump is entertaining his troops and doing it very well. He was an entertainer and still is.
See my “Is Trump the wittiest president?”
https://www.cfact.org/2019/07/06/is-trump-the-wittiest-president/
An excerpt: “I am not sure President Trump has said anything this historically famous and funny, but he has said a lot and drives the left wing media nuts, as he well knows. They insist on taking his jokes seriously, which then makes them look like the fools they are.”
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I think it’s clear that you are half right about Trump’s wit.
I admit it. I thought “Little Red Lying Hood” was funny.
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Same here.
Doth lady does protest too much.
“The subsequent resort to name-calling by some participants on this blog has been distressing. It began about midway through the Northam administration. I had hoped that when Northam left office, it would stop, but it has not.”
My first comments here came in 2020 (regarding scientific method) and they were met with an utter never ending string of ad hom attack from someone you politically align with, yet you were mum. I’ve said this repeatedly and which you said you’d be better but you revert to your old ways of ignoring those you agree with.
Partisan hack comes to mind when you belly ache and make comments and that’s not an ad hom that’s fact.
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Thanks Matt for proving my point.
Thanks Dick. Perhaps its time for a Braver Angels intervention @ Bacon’s Rebellion? BR is just symptomatic of a much much larger issue. It is not immune from the society and culture at large. https://braverangels.org/our-story/ https://www.culturalevolution.org/our-developmental-approach-in-700-words/
Well, won’t argue with you, but I would like to add, in defense of a possible detractor of mine, that punctuation is everything. It is entirely possible that “Nonsense Nancy” was intended to be “Nonsense, Nancy.” At least that’s how I take it.
Oh… you meant Pelosi. Never mind.
I think you mean the “Northamization” of, not just this site, but the Commonwealth at large
Agreed. We can at least do this on the Bacon’s Rebellion level. Let’s discuss with facts and not pejoratives.
Ripper, I have every right to hold my very low opinion of Donald Trump just as you do with Northam. At least I don’t call Trump “coonman.”
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No, you call him “racist” which is just as bad.
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I do not recall Peter calling him a racist myself.
Are you sure that you’re not taking someone on Twitter doing that and projecting it to Peter or others in BR?
If your standard is whoever the worst actor is anywhere that you read – and from that you think you can call anyone who is not of your view here in BR a “libtwit” or worse…
geeze. DJ. You’re a grown man and your talk is now full of pejoratives rather than discussion of the issues themselves and you blame the folks who abhorred Trump which includes quite a few Conservative types right here in BR?
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You forgot “Let’s go Brandon”
What an absolute croc of ****. For four years the Libtwits in America and on this board insulted Donald Trump non-stop. Even the title of thjs ill-conceived article is yet another insult of the former president. Trump was categorized (without reference) as a racist, xenophobe, misogynist, anti-immigrant, etc. Robert Deniro (a clown who makes his living pretending to be someone he is not while reading words he didn’t write) screamed “F*** Trump”. Not a word from Hall-Sizemore. Griffen published a photo with the bloody head of the sitting president. Not a peep from Hall-Sizemore.
Nonsense Nancy tore up her copy of the State of the Union speech on national TV. Nothing but crickets from Hall-Sizemore.
But now that his “team” is failing and losing … it’s time for decorum. Now that Senile Joe is presiding over a meltdown of the US economy, now that the border is in complete chaos, after the abysmal fiasco in Afghanistan, now that our president answers questions he wasn’t asked and shakes hands with the air … now is the time for civility. Seriously?
Dick and his leftist clown show started a brawl the day that Donald Trump was elected. Nothing was off-limits. Lies were told – Trump was controlled by Russians, Trump supported the white nationalists in Charlottesville, etc. Now that their leader is a man in obvious mental decline, it’s time for politeness.
You know, Dick – when you start a bar fight you better be prepared to get hit back. Throwing punches and then insisting on peace is intellectual cowardice.
By the way – Asshat Northam called himself “Coonman” as a nick-name.
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Dick was talking primarily about THIS BLOG and your name calling here is something I do not remember you doing in prior times in BR. And yes, it seemed to start with “coonman” and it had nothing to do with Trump and still does not. Someone who objects to that characterization, you simply do not know if that makes them anti-trump. You’re just assuming it – that if they condemn the use of the word ‘coonman”, that they are automatically hypocrites in your mind.
DJ – I’m not sure I would be proud of that. You’re basically impugning anyone, labeling them libtwits if they disagree with calling Northam “coonman” or Biden “slow joe”.
This is how you want to communicate? Every interaction is you doing your pejoratives and anyone responding returns the favor?
Wonderful suggestion! Civil discussion instead of name-calling.
A pox on both their houses. Both Repubs and Dems are unfit to govern in 2022. Peeing all over each other instead of debating policies and issues is why I quit being a partisan and have been an Indy since ’11.
Things got much worse in ’16 thanks to the Clinton campaign, and the Repubs have responded in kind.
There is no hope of figuring out how to work together as a country while two parties spend most of their time hurling insults at one another.
Time for a 3rd party, where’s the little jug eared Martian (Ross Perot) when we need him?
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