What’s the Best COVID Metric — Vaccinations or Antibodies?

by James A. Bacon

The University of Virginia has “disenrolled” 49 students who had registered for fall classes but failed to comply with the school’s COVID-19 vaccine mandate. Another 184 temporary waivers were granted to students who have had trouble getting vaccinated, according to The Washington Post.

University officials say that fewer than one percent of students are out of compliance. “We are in a much better and much different position than we were last year, primarily because of the vaccines and the extraordinarily high vaccination rate in our community,” said President Jim Ryan.

In the spring semester, the university reported 1,950 infections among students, faculty and staff. By comparison the UVa COVID tracker logged only 12 new cases yesterday and notes that only 56 cases are active — mostly among faculty and staff.

Costi Sifri, director of hospital epidemiology, said that vaccines are one of the best defenses against the virus. “They prevent infection and they are very effective in preventing hospitalization and other serious outcomes,” he said, according to the Post. “It remains the case that people who are vaccinated are much safer from infection than unvaccinated people.”

There they go again — failing to differentiate between unvaccinated people who have recovered from the virus and unvaccinated people who have not been infected.

You’ll get no argument from me that unvaccinated people who have never been infected pose a large risk to themselves and to others. I have no issue with UVa requiring them to get vaccinated (except in rare instances when special medical factors might come into play). But I still don’t understand the stubborn refusal to acknowledge the reality that COVID survivors have a very different risk profile.

If a student hasn’t been vaccinated, how hard would it be to require them to submit to an antibodies test? That’s the bottom line, isn’t it? Does someone have antibodies? If students have antibodies, why does it matter how they acquired them?

It is widely recognized now that the vaccines lose their protective potency over time. Now that we’ve reached the eight-month mark since people began getting vaccinated, some UVa students, faculty and staff will need boosters soon. Why does UVa give these people dispensation over someone who has naturally acquired immunities? Rather than arbitrarily giving every vaccinated person a pass, shouldn’t UVa require everyone to get antibody tests?

Maybe the UVa administration has good reasons to ignore the reality that a large number of people — 740,000 confirmed cases in Virginia, and the actual number is probably much bigger — have natural immunity, but it has yet to explain its logic to the university community.

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162 responses to “What’s the Best COVID Metric — Vaccinations or Antibodies?”

  1. Steve, do you plan to get a COVID booster at some why, and, if so, why?

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Yes, because it is recommended. I’m 65+ with some cardiac issues that probably make me more vulnerable. The risk-benefit calculus remains highly in favor of the shots. In my case 8 months will be November.

      1. So, you acknowledge that the efficacy of your vaccine declines over time.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          Does purchasing insurance mean you will be in a car accident?

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            If you don’t own a car you don’t have to purchase car insurance.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Well, since in your analogy, everyone owns a car, a better question would be “Since you’ve had one accident, does that mean you can cancel your policy?”

            Some dolt might suggest that he ain’t got a dog in the fight.

        2. DJRippert Avatar

          Does anybody seriously doubt that?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Oh when it comes to COVID ?

        3. William O'Keefe Avatar
          William O’Keefe

          Jim, no one knows how long the immunity lasts, so it is prudent to get the booster when you can. For all we know, it may turn out to be an annual event like the flu shot. Those who refuse to get the vaccine not only put themselves at risk–their choice–but also those who they interact with. That is stupid and irresponsible.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            The thing about the annual flu shot.


            Isn’t it because the shot you get this year won’t work for next year’s flu which is a mutation of this year’s?

            Is that going on with COVID?

          2. DJRippert Avatar

            That’s my understanding.

          3. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            The covid virus mutates also. If you don’t like the flu analogy, what about shingles and pneumonia boosters? Why spend time nit picking and missing the big picture?

          4. DJRippert Avatar

            I’m not sure you are right with respect to the Delta variant. The protection against infection with the vaccines, especially Pfizer, is ebbing fast. Meanwhile, if you get a breakthrough Delta infection you have just as much virus in your nasal passages as someone who got Delta without being vaccinated.

            If vaccines really stop the spread then Israel should not be surging.

            The good news is that the vaccines do seem to keep you from getting really sick.


  2. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Dead bodies is a good metric too.

      1. DJRippert Avatar

        Don’t look at Israel.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        That’s Virginia… thank god for a non-Republican governor. BTW, Alabama is 8 hours down I-85 without checkpoints and roadblocks.

        Nice graph to look at in this too. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/10/1026375608/nearly-94-000-kids-got-covid-19-last-week-they-were-15-of-all-new-infections

  3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    You keep ignoring a recent study, which has been pointed out at least twice in recent days by BR commenters, that vaccines provide higher immunity than than “naturally acquired” antibodies. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html Also, do folks who have contracted COVID in the past have basically the same antibody load? If not, then what is the minimally acceptable antibody level?

    1. And you’re ignoring the Cleveland study that shows otherwise.

      Forget the dueling studies. Here’s my main point. We now know that Pfizer efficacy does not stay at 95% forever. The efficacy declines over time. That’s why they’re saying that people will need boosters. You’re with me, right?

      If vaccination efficacy is not a stable thing, if efficacy declines over time, a vaccination/no vaccination binary is not terribly useful. Shouldn’t we be tracking antibodies? Why aren’t we basing policy on antibody levels?

      1. “Why aren’t we basing policy on antibody levels?”

        …because the antibodies decline when the infection or inoculation is over.

        The information used to create the antibodies is stored in “memory B cells”. The existence of these cells is what predicts your likelihood of successfully fending off the disease.


      2. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        The immediate presence or absence of antibodies tells you nothing about the bodily response that would follow a full infection. Most of the defenses remain dormant until triggered.

        This is sophistry on your part, Jim. You are not this stupid. I don’t know why you think engaging in these weak-ass arguments is of any value, but I think it ultimately harmful. Thousands more are going to die needlessly because smarter people are encouraging their illusions. This really is natural selection taking out the weak members of the herd, including the mentally weak. I never would have predicted this level of self-destructive foolishness. Fascinating and horrifying at once.

        1. I’m not advocating anything. I’m asking questions, which I think are pretty logical. Calling them “sophistry” and “weak-ass” does not constitute an argument.

          Saying that “the immediate presence or absence of antibodies tells you nothing about the bodily response that would follow a full infection” is an argument. I would like to know the basis for that statement.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            If you read the same studies that infectious disease experts read and your “logic” comes up with a different assessment – why should we believe you and not the infectious disease experts?

          2. Stephen Haner Avatar
            Stephen Haner

            The same medical degree you have…

        2. DJRippert Avatar

          It seems to me that a COVID vaccine every 6 months is what will be needed.

          Has the safety of that course of treatment been tested – a shot every 6 months?

          Smoking a pack of cigarettes will not increase your chances of getting cancer. Smoking a pack of cigarettes every day over many years will increase your chances of getting cancer.

          This is not nearly as easy as you are trying to make it Steve.

          I still think the risk/reward calculus favors getting the vaccine and all recommended boosters. However, we should all admit that a long course of repeated vaccines is a voyage into largely uncharted waters.

    2. DJRippert Avatar

      The great unknowns seem to be whether all vaccines are created equal and how long any immunity lasts.

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      But, but,… that study conflicts with the hearsay statements of GMU’s Zywicki’s immunologist. Not to mention that Israel has started boosters for all citizens over 40, not just those with immunodeficiency.


      1. Zywicki’s lawsuit cited numerous scientific studies. It cited no hearsay. By spewing these kinds of statements, you add nothing to the conversation. You only detract.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          I did not say he did not cite other sources. I said he relayed information from his personal doctor, on which he said he is relying. Is that not accurate?

      2. DJRippert Avatar

        I thought it was 50 in Israel but your point on Israel is well taken.

        As a Pfizer dude I’d like to get that booster.

        Where is the Biden Administration on releasing those boosters?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          You do realize that it’s the CDC and FDA that are recommending the boosters not “smart bloggers”? right?

          If fact, “smart bloggers” like JAB are expressing some doubt… especially for those who actually got COVID and are said to have permanent lifetime immunity.

          If so, you screwed up and should have gotten covid, no?

          In fact, since the vaccines and boosters do not provide lifetime immunity – you’re basically kicking the can and are better off not getting the booster and getting covid instead… that’s your ticket to lifetime immnity…

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Nov 1 is start date, I think. I’ve got the willys about that too. I have to drive an immunodeficient friend to Florida mid-Oct. We’re hoping he can get a booster Oct 1 and I’ll quarantine before going to keep him safe, but it’s me spending a week in Governor DeathSentence’s state right at 8 months since my last vaccine, and two weeks before I can get my 3rd that’s bothersome.

    4. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      That is a false statement. That study has been addressed by others to include myself.

      The premise that it proved anything conclusive is false, as indicated in the study and it’s discussion.

      They produced 5 limitations to the report, the largest being that they didn’t test individuals to confirm it was a new infection.

      1. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        If the belt might fail, go ahead and add suspenders. The people who work in this field are arguing among themselves, so it seems quite obvious you should go ahead and get the shot despite a previous infection. The few hospital admissions and deaths among the vaccinated is incredibly strong evidence of their efficacy to date. So what if after 8 month I get the shot again? I take prescriptions daily to keep those chemicals steady in my system. Annual is easy compare to daily.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          “The people who work in this field are arguing among themselves”

          Umm no, they are partaking the Scientific Method which is a foreign concept to people on this blog. Half ya’ll spend your time parroting Larry’s inane BS about science being settled, it’s not.

          1. Observation
          2. Research
          3. Hypothesis
          4. Test w/ Experiments
          5. Analyze data
          6. Report Conclusions
          7. Repeat

          The study being cited provided why they held their finding inconclusive and why the process needed to start over. The major issue being that they didn’t test or map the virus they called “reinfection”. If you cannot conclusively proof that it was reinfection how can you conclude anything about natural immunity.

          Pfizer efficacy 6 months after shot 2 is 84% and after 9 months in the 60%.

          “I take prescriptions daily to keep those chemicals steady in my system.”

          Correct, because of either biology issues or self-induced. That however isn’t foisted upon you, you made those decisions yourself.

          1. Stephen Haner Avatar
            Stephen Haner

            I was giving Larry that lecture before you arrived. This decision is rather time sensitive and let’s not wait for them to work all that out, okay?

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            If people want to get the vaccine go for it, however the foisting it upon people is not a method that should be undertaken.

            Nor is the notion that COVID recovered are inferiors to vaccinated.

            Those who flat out refuse any and all vaccines, I’ve got no use for them but it’s their decision. They reap the benefits accordingly.

      2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I did not say that no one had addressed the study. I said that Jim was ignoring it.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          If they didn’t confirm it was a new infection through gene sequencing what did it really prove.

          Furthermore, unless gene sequencing is being undertaken in all cases, they don’t know who is infected with Detla or any other variant. The COVID-19 test are not specific.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar

          The CDC Kentucky study was done a little later than the Israeli study but rather than seeing them as “dueling”, I see the CDC as being cautious and taking a safe but sorry approach since we really do not know with absolute certainty at this point in time.

          It’s a “conservative” approach.

          Over and Over, folks like JAB, seem to want to follow the other end of betting the farm… until someone proves otherwise.

          Why not take the cautious approach until we actually do know more and with more certainty since the virus IS continuing to evolve?

          The Israeli Study is anything but the final word. It’s a preliminary data point.

      3. R. Kooi Avatar

        You are changing the subject…”conclusive” ?
        The point is that the best evidence shows vaccines are superior (with less personal risk from catching the virus the old fashioned way…foolhardy behavior…as advocated by doctors DeSantis and Abbott).

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          No, not really. Pointing out that the authors found their results inconclusive because they didn’t determine if it was a new infection.

          “The point is that the best evidence shows vaccines are superior (with less personal risk from catching the virus the old fashioned way…foolhardy behavior…as advocated by doctors DeSantis and Abbott).”

          Umm there exists no such evidence, as the cited study didn’t confirm if it was a new infection or the original. Therefore there was no ability to measure effective immunity.

          As for your partisan shot, both Gov. you cite encourage vaccines. They however don’t wish to mandate that or masks.

          However, you up-vote yourself you’re a moron.

          1. R. Kooi Avatar

            You keep referring to this 1 study…there are others.

            Covid vaccine produces more antibodies than having the …


            19/01/2021 · Employees of Sheba Medical Center in Ramat Gan who received both doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine have more antibodies against the novel coronavirus than do people who had the disease and recovered. This finding was based on blood tests from 102 vaccinated Sheba employees. More than 7,000 workers at the medical center have so far …

            How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from …


            22/06/2021 · Now, a new NIH-supported study shows that the answer to this question will vary based on how an individual’s antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 were generated: over the course of a naturally acquired infection or from a COVID-19 vaccine. The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies …

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            1.4% was the test bed from your first link that’s from January. It also noted that 2 individuals developed no response at all.

            The 2nd link used words like could and may, because it’s not know. There exist no data to validate said statements.


  4. energyNOW_Fan Avatar

    I am a fan of vaccines, even before COVID. I feel they make me stronger in the face of germs.

    However, I am worried about the need to exclude other people from community activities that used to be open membership: eg; the bus driver shortage, and many other areas. If antibody count is effective tool, then maybe it helps inclusivity.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      If the vaccines are said to reduce efficacy over time – and you measure the antibodies over time – can you tell from the antibodies that the protection has diminished?

      If someone did not get their booster, would they still show antibodies ?

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Antibodies are merely a step in the immune response.

  5. Publius Avatar

    Wow. Why the suppression of an honest discussion of natural immunity?
    How come the human race hasn’t been wiped out by flu, which has been deadlier in various strains?
    I would go further than Jim Bacon on the antibodies test. T cell immunity is long lasting. So, the antibodies go away after some time, but the T cells remember what they saw and how to respond. This has been an accepted part of epidemiology forever.
    Why different this time for a strain we know who is at danger and have knowledge of how to treat? Get vaxed if you want.
    And excuse me for being suspicious of the Pfizer (and coming Moderna) approval. How come previous vax approvals took 10-15 years and now we have this approval for an entirely new treatment method in basically a year? I believe the FDA process could be improved – no doubt on that – but I suspect strong political tampering here with the SCIENCE! I don’t think they know all the effects and that has been already shown with the dropping efficacy rates and the third shot now.
    THEY DON”T KNOW…AND NEITHER DO I… but at least I can point to past history for my belief that natural immunity is sufficient.
    Hey an unvaxed guy died! Panic! And have vaxed people died? Yes, they have… Get a grip everybody and drop the totalitarianism…and the condescension…

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Says the person hiding behind a pseudonym…

      VDH is up with updated data through 8/14 on hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated and unvaccinated. The protective value of the shots is indisputable, but was never going to be perfect.

      And I think you just reinforced my point about the low utility of antibody testing per se, since it fades too and won’t tell you how strong that T-cell response would be if triggered. Hey, I cheered last spring when that fellow from Johns Hopkins, Makary (?), declared herd immunity had been reached. Well, no. Why that huge mistake is not keeping him off Fox….well, no, don’t ask.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        How do scientists actually measure the reduced effectiveness?

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          VE = (ARU – ARV/ARU)*100%

          VE = (1-RR)*100%

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          By “I see dead people”?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            more than dead… less sick ?

            how do they know – over time – the reduced efficacy – for not dead but sick?

            Is it al about collecting data or do they also measure anti-body levels in the vaccinated who never got sick?

            Do we KNOW? How do we just accept the CDC numbers for reduced effectiveness – without question, not a doubt, we trust them but then on related issues – no can do.

            go figure.

      2. Publius Avatar

        Makary is an idiot?
        I don’t get it.
        Get vaxed if you want.
        But natural immunity from previous infection is a fair question, and is consistent with all past practices.
        Are the previously infected really a risk to the vaxed?
        Seriously, everybody needs to drop out of the panic mode. Cases aren’t death. And many people “get” Covid so mildly they don’t even get it recorded as a case.
        Why didn’t the world end when H1N1 hit 60,000,000?
        Was it just that we had the Obamassiah and were guaranteed safety?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Your view is not shared by most corporations, NGOs, colleges, etc…

          why is that?

          1. Publius Avatar

            And that makes it wrong?
            The corporations are doing the will of the government because (1) they fear the mob; and (2) they want to keep their licenses.
            The NGOs? They are the government hiding behind tax exempt, supposed goody goody motives…you know, like all the NGOs that are in Mexico, coaching people how to falsely claim protected status, to then go to the Catholic Charities, who have a contract with the government to “help” in their settlement.
            Colleges – see above.
            Money has perverted everything here.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            We’re talking about corporations around the world. Colleges around the world. Governments around the world.

            You deny it all and claim you are correct?

            A conspiracy?

            geeze guy.. how did you get this way?

          3. Publius Avatar

            By not being stupid. By not believing it’s raining when someone is peeing on my leg. How’d you end up the way you did?

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            by believing credentialed scientists when it comes to vaccines like smallpox and polio?

            Do you not believe in the efficacy of vaccines produced by science?

            Were you “stupid” because someone else decided you should get vaccines before?

          5. Publius Avatar

            The intentional stupidity –
            Let’s try again…
            Vaccines work.
            The Covid vax is not a traditional vax and we don’t know it’s true effectiveness.
            Both of those statements are true.
            If you want the Covid vax, get it.
            Do you understand that?
            The mandates are illegal, and even with the suspicious early approval, still illegal.
            OK? Got that?
            Now, if it gets approved and legislatively required, then there should be medical and religious exemptions consistent with all prior history. Understand that?
            Seriously people – get a grip. Different people would make a different decision than you. It is their decision and since they know their medical condition better than you do, I think that decision belongs to them. Understand that?
            Next, based on Roe v Wade and the cases following, if it got to the Supreme Court on medical privacy, the privacy argument will win or else Roe is endangered.
            Finally, this pandemic rule and following guidance from bureaucracies is a threat to self-government and our liberties, even yours Larry.
            Vaccine passports and mandates are a very dangerous slope and we can already see that our illustrious leaders love to rule by decree.

          6. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “The mandates are illegal..””

            Not true.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar

            yeah.. he says a lot of things are”illegal”… and “un-Constitutional”… like a steady drumbeat….

          8. Publius Avatar

            Wow. Definitive proof! Please find a statute that requires Covid vax. I’ll wait…

          9. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Why would there need to be an new statute requiring a Covid vaccine? The Boards of each institution clearly have the power by statute to make the vaccine a condition of attendance. There is not even a question.

          10. Publius Avatar

            No…not quite…the Statute on vaccines refers to the AFHA because the legislature presumed they had medical knowledge. The general authority statute that you are apparently referring to has not been used to make medical decisions (hence the existence of the vax statute), but…if you want to interpret it that a BOV can do whatever the H3!! it wants, you will come to regret that decision.
            The disenroll thing that recently happened? I asked for the authority and got the vax mandate emails, but no BOV approval. So, will the BOV hide behind it delegated authority to Ryan? As a matter of governance, to disenroll someone over a vax mandate for a disease the students aren’t at any appreciable risk, doesn’t seem totalitarian to you? (That was a rhetorical question since you are a totalitarian.) The kids are being and have been used as guinea pigs. It is outrageous.

          11. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            And… just like that you shift your argument to a new tact, as usual.

            The BOV has the authority and they have the right to delegate that authority. It is in the COV in black and white. I get you don’t like the policy but it is legal. Further, it seems to be effective. Alas, all around a positive move that likely has popular support – except with your anti-vaxer crowd, of course.

          12. Publius Avatar

            You can choose to allow and defend lawlessness and violation of all norms to get what you want. It never ends well.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar

            Are mandates for other vaccines “illegal” also?

            Are other vaccines also a “threat to your Liberty”?

            Do you have a “right” to infect others?

            The COVID vaccine does not provide what is known as sterilizing immunity – it does not kill the virus now or in the future. People still have the virus. This is not uncommon. It’s true with some other vaccines also.

          14. Publius Avatar

            No, the statutory vax mandates are legal! Do you understand the difference? Let’s play Sesame Street “One of these things is not like the other…”

            A “right” to infect others…Do you have a “right” to determine other people’s medical treatment? How about fat people? Do you know how much money they cost us?

            Still at…why does it upset people that other people may make a different decision? As a condition of employment, as a private employer, can I require that I see your party registration? That I see your tax return? Your medical records? If I see you aren’t a Commie and are an actual taxpayer, wouldn’t I be able to assemble a good workforce? How about a DNA test? (Oh, that’s illegal…but Covid discrimination is A-OK!)

          15. LarrytheG Avatar

            okay.. explain the difference.. I’m dull sometimes..

            re: behavior – do you have a “right” to engage in behaviors that can harm others?

            The medical record ? geeze guy. Have you ever signed a HIPPA waiver or do you refuse?

            Can an employer protect employees by requiring you to take precautions that could harm them?

            yep, he can. He can tell you not to smoke. Not to carry a gun. Not to engage in activities that are inherently dangerous to others. yes.

            Can he require you to provide a urine sample or a blood test? yup.

        2. Stephen Haner Avatar
          Stephen Haner

          No, shouldn’t say he is an idiot, but he sure got that call dead wrong. Dead….wrong.

        3. Stephen Haner Avatar
          Stephen Haner

          No, shouldn’t say he is an idiot, but he sure got that call dead wrong. Dead….wrong.

      3. FluxAmbassador Avatar

        I really don’t understand the collective bug people seem to have up their shorts around here about anonymity.

      4. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Not that I’ll find a report that would change anyone’s mind here, but within the last 2 decades, studies were done suggesting that smallpox vaccine we (you and I) got 60-some years ago was still doing its thing. I doubt we have detectable levels of smallpox antibodies.

        BTW, I think Pubic is his real name.

        Good ol’ SA
        “Vaccination 40 years ago, even if not currently protective against smallpox disease, may offer some protection against a fatal outcome. A study of smallpox cases imported into nonendemic countries found that mortality was 52 percent among the unvaccinated, 11 percent among those vaccinated more than 20 years earlier and 1.4 percent of those vaccinated within 10 years. Therefore, vaccination 40 years ago most likely does not confer protection against smallpox infection, but it may help to prevent a fatal outcome. “

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Each one of these diseases are unique.

          Smallpox is not like Polio is not like Ebola.

          Sterlizing immunity is smallpox.

          You don’t have sterilizing immunity with Polio or with Hepatitus… or Shingles…

          In fact, from what I read sterilizing immunity is less common and much harder to develop…

          The point is that most lay people don’t know – truly. There is a reason why they are called infectious disease experts and people cannot become one by reading and logic….

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            The point was that they didn’t know until the study, and they still don’t for sure.

            But, you’re probably right… it ain’t ebola, or any other virus. It’s cov2.

            My poor experience gives me but one analogy to the whole process, both for the immunity and the virus — Xerox. As long as the ink levels are high, making copies of the original is oka, but making copies of copies of copies… things go off the rails.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            Yes. They read “a” study , without benefit of an academic background in infectious disease and think they can read, understand, and interpret and draw conclusions from that.

            We are all ignorant – just on different subjects … “Smart people” who are not trained academically in a field like infectious disease are ignorant, and I don’t mean that as a pejorative but a simple statement of fact.

            You can’t become an infectious disease expert by reading a study…

            When the CDC offers guidance – it’s not an opinion of one or two un-credentialed “smart guys”.

  6. Publius Avatar

    But FDA guidance is…
    Meanwhile, what dosage and use does it take to make Ivermectin unsafe versus how many adverse reactions there have been to the Covid vaxes?
    Isn’t that safe to know? To inquire? Isn’t inquisitiveness part of SCIENCE!?
    I’m the one not spreading lies. I’m asking questions, and I admit what I don’t know, and I say what my opinion is as my opinion.
    Is the NCBI from NIH sufficiently bathed in authority for you, Larry the G?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      No – you ARE spreading FUD like the best of propagandists do and for what reason I haven’t a clue.

      Why do you do what you are doing?

      What’s your purpose?

      We have a vaccine that works as good or better than the vaccines most of us have gotten before.

      That’s the truth.

      So what are you doing?

      1. Publius Avatar

        Larry – it is not the TRUTH.
        It has been said. It is suspected.
        And meanwhile, I still say and will always say you can’t mandate it, so try persuasion.
        I don’t care if you or anybody else gets vaxed.
        And I notice you did not address the Ivermectin article…

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          I’ve gotten all my childhood vaccines, I’ve gotten annual flu shots, Shingles vaccine, tetnus shots, and a booster for one of the childhood diseases.

          Why should I no longer trust them?

          Why do you not?

          Are you anti-vax in general?

          I did not address the Ivermectin on purpose, suffice to say, medicine/therapy is not so good self-administered when the FDA says “don’t do”.

          1. Publius Avatar

            As usual…no answer. I don’t care about your vax status or anybody else’s, except mine, and my status in nobody’s business except mine. Most people choose to be vaccinated…maybe even me…but that is not and has not ever been the issue. Amazing how dense everybody here can be over this…meanwhile Afghanistan, but let’s argue about vax status – it’s a first world luxury and a waste of time and energy, but that is the point of getting people to panic…
            So, trust FDA, but not NIH?
            Larry – blindly repeating the government line leads to gulag… Trying to help!

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            Nope. Your vaccine status can be required for some jobs or for overseas travel or really a variety of activities.

            We don’t want people preparing food in a restaurant if they have tuberculosis, right?

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            It’s Hep A you don’t want the cook to have.

          4. Publius Avatar

            Here is the VA statute for colleges –
            B. Prior to enrollment for the first time in any baccalaureate public institution of higher education, each student shall be immunized by vaccine against diphtheria, tetanus, poliomyelitis, measles (rubeola), German measles (rubella), and mumps according to the guidelines of the American College Health Association.

            C. Prior to enrollment for the first time in any baccalaureate public institution of higher education, each full-time student shall be vaccinated against meningococcal disease and hepatitis B unless the student or, if the student is a minor, the student’s parent or legal guardian signs a written waiver stating that he has received and reviewed detailed information on the risks associated with meningococcal disease and hepatitis B and the availability and effectiveness of any vaccine and has chosen not to be or not to have the student vaccinated
            And here are the child basics…
            12VAC5-110-70. Immunization requirements.
            Every student enrolling in a school shall provide documentary proof of adequate immunization with the prescribed number of doses of each of the vaccines and toxoids listed in the following subdivisions, as appropriate for the child’s age according to the immunization schedules. Spacing, minimum ages, and minimum intervals shall be in accordance with the immunization schedules. A copy of every student’s immunization record shall be on file in his school record.

            1. Diphtheria Toxoid. A minimum of four properly spaced doses of diphtheria toxoid. One dose shall be administered on or after the fourth birthday and prior to entering kindergarten.

            2. Tetanus Toxoid. A minimum of four properly spaced doses of tetanus toxoid. One dose shall be administered on or after the fourth birthday and prior to entering kindergarten.

            3. Pertussis Vaccine. A minimum of four properly spaced doses of pertussis vaccine. One dose shall be administered on or after the fourth birthday. A booster dose shall be administered prior to entering the seventh grade.

            4. Poliomyelitis Vaccine. A minimum of four doses of poliomyelitis vaccine with one dose administered on or after the fourth birthday and prior to entering kindergarten.

            5. Measles (Rubeola) Vaccine. One dose of live measles vaccine administered at age 12 months or older, and a second dose administered prior to entering kindergarten.

            6. Rubella Vaccine. A minimum of one dose of rubella virus vaccine administered at age 12 months or older.

            7. Mumps Vaccine. One dose of mumps virus vaccine administered at age 12 months or older and a second dose administered prior to entering kindergarten.

            8. Haemophilus Influenzae Type b (Hib) Vaccine. A complete series of Hib vaccine (i.e., up to a maximum of four doses of vaccine as appropriate for the age of the child and the age at which the immunization series was initiated). The number of doses administered shall be in accordance with current immunization schedule recommendations. Attestation by the physician or his designee, registered nurse, or an official of a local health department on that portion of Form MCH 213G pertaining to Hib vaccine shall mean that the child has satisfied the requirements of this section. This section shall not apply to children older than 60 months of age or for admission to any grade level, kindergarten through grade 12.

            9. Hepatitis B Vaccine. A minimum of three doses of hepatitis B vaccine for all children. The FDA has approved a two-dose schedule only for adolescents 11 through 15 years of age and only when the Merck brand (RECOMBIVAX HB) Adult Formulation Hepatitis B vaccine is used. The two RECOMBIVAX HB adult doses must be separated by a minimum of four months. The two dose schedule using the adult formulation must be clearly documented in the Hepatitis B section on Form MCH 213G.

            10. Varicella (Chickenpox) Vaccine. All children born on and after January 1, 1997, shall be required to have one dose of chickenpox vaccine on or after 12 months of age and a second dose administered prior to entering kindergarten.

            11. Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV). A complete series of PCV (i.e., up to a maximum of four doses of vaccine as appropriate for the age of the child and the age at which the immunization series was initiated). The number of doses administered shall be in accordance with current immunization schedule recommendations. Attestation by the physician or his designee, registered nurse, or an official of a local health department on that portion of Form MCH 213G pertaining to PCV vaccine shall mean that the child has satisfied the requirements of this section. This section shall not apply to children older than 60 months of age or for admission to any grade level, kindergarten through grade 12.

            12. Human Papillomavirus (HPV) Vaccine. Three doses of properly spaced HPV vaccine for females, effective October 1, 2008. The first dose shall be administered before the child enters the sixth grade.

            Statutory Authority

            §§ 22.1-271.2, 32.1-12, and 32.1-46 of the Code of Virginia.

            TB vax is not currently required in VA (or US generally). Is this something new I need to live in terror of Larry?

            I guess you won’t go to any restaurants now that you know the employees aren’t TB vaxed. I don’t know how you lived so long! Danger! Danger!

          5. LarrytheG Avatar

            We don’t live in terror guy. We have procedures and regulations to protect health and safety.

            We have traffic signals, We don’t allow specified toxic chemicals. You can’t smoke in a public place.. If you drink and drive , you are violating the law.

            We’ve had these laws and regulations for decades. The Food and Drug law is over 100 years old.

            Nothing new … been this way all along.

          6. Publius Avatar

            So what are you arguing about?
            Is it systemic racism for me to expect laws rather than edicts?

          7. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            BCG (TB) isn’t an mandatory vaccine.

            Medical workers are tested for TB every year.

  7. FluxAmbassador Avatar

    This is all so silly.

    On the one hand, we have a vaccine that can confer immune protection against a virus with a risk of death or serious complications at around 0.

    One the other hand, we have a natural immunity that can be conferred only after being infected with said virus that has a combined death+complication rate of over 1%.

    We have institutions that – for years – have requested proof of vaccination against a host of diseases without so much as a peep about this from the right. The institutional knowledge and frameworks are all in place to ask about vaccination. Now we’re asking them to – for one virus – add an extra layer of work at a cost that will certainly be greater than people just getting vaccinated.

    This argument is that we should go for a riskier, less efficient way of proving immunity because, what? Some people just don’t want to? That’s enough now? There are pathways – as there always have been – for people to file religious and medical exemptions.

    We’re in possession of what is essentially a miracle drug – everyone commenting on this thread has been alive long enough to remember a time where the development of a safe and effective vaccine in a year would have been considered science fiction – that we’re playing footsie about because (and please let’s all be honest here) the former president decided to make a hot potato by touting drugs that didn’t work and other nonsense and now there’s a second order of grifters doing the same with garbage like Ivermectin.

    Everyone who can needs to get it. Institutions are right to require proof of vaccination because it’s efficient and understood and it protects the members of that institution who cannot be vaccinated.

    1. “On the one hand, we have a vaccine that can confer immune protection against a virus with a risk of death or serious complications at around 0.

      “One the other hand, we have a natural immunity that can be conferred only after being infected with said virus that has a combined death+complication rate of over 1%.”

      That comment has zero relevance to my post. I have always urged uninfected people to get the vaccine. The question is how do you treat the 10% (or more) of the population that has survived the virus despite our best efforts to prevent the spread and, as a result, has developed some degree of natural resistance.

      1. FluxAmbassador Avatar

        You treat them by vaccinating them because it’s simple, incredibly low risk, appears to provide even more protection, and we already have working knowledge of how and system in place to screen people for having been vaccinated.

        There is zero good reason to contort ourselves as a society around this.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        So quick question.
        Suppose I am certain that I had Covid in March of 2020 (2019 flu vaccinated) but because of restrictions on being tested at the time, got better without medical intervention, just like 90% of those who were infected early in 2020.

        “Should I make an appointment to be jabbed with a needle to have blood drawn for an antibody test, or just get jabbed once with the vaccine?”

        What’s my motive? Reduced needle pokes?

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          Your supposition is pointless, if you feel the need to get the vaccine that is your choice.

    2. Mr. Bacon has picked up on a thread of actual science and, of course, has misunderstood it.

      There’s actually a very good reason to check the antibody response immediately after the vaccine is delivered: It’s a way to gauge who is generating the strongest protection against the virus and therefore who is more and less likely to require a booster.

      This, in theory, should conserve vaccine supply and target it only to places where it is most effective.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        “There’s actually a very good reason to check the antibody response immediately after the vaccine is delivered”

        The first does confers 90% immunity at 2 weeks post injection, the second dose gets you to that 95% two weeks after it.

        If you’re checking antibodies prior to 21+14 (Pfizer) or (28+14) Moderna you’re not getting any reading on antibodies or effectiveness.

        1. It’s a different test, Matthew. They don’t simply check that antibodies exist, they measure the levels. Low levels suggest less protection.

          “Unlike older antibody tests, which simply detect whether antibodies are present or not, the new tests can tell the level of antibodies in the blood… A low antibody response means you are more likely to get reinfected and pass it onto someone else.”


          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            What you just wrote and cited has nothing to do with your initial claim.

            The only thing your citation highlights is that different manufactures use different standards to measure antibodies.

  8. Press release from the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis:

    Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection
    People who have had mild illness develop antibody-producing cells that can last a lifetime

    Months after recovering from mild cases of COVID-19, people still have immune cells in their body pumping out antibodies against the virus that causes COVID-19, according to a study from researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. Such cells could persist for a lifetime, churning out antibodies all the while.

    The findings, published May 24 in the journal Nature, suggest that mild cases of COVID-19 leave those infected with lasting antibody protection and that repeated bouts of illness are likely to be uncommon.

    “Last fall, there were reports that antibodies wane quickly after infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived,” said senior author Ali Ellebedy, PhD, an associate professor of pathology & immunology, of medicine and of molecular microbiology. “But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau. Here, we found antibody-producing cells in people 11 months after first symptoms. These cells will live and produce antibodies for the rest of people’s lives. That’s strong evidence for long-lasting immunity.”

    You can always trust the mainstream media to accurately report the science. And you can always trust LarrytheG to accurately report the mainstream media.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      What I “reported” was the CDC words:


      it came out in August and it’s not the mainstrem media and it appears to focus on delta.

      If you don’t know for sure and the CDC itself is being cautious , why would you not also be?

      What’s the point of what you are doing Jim? You’re betting the farm on something you really don’t know conclusively and apparently choosing to disregard the CDC.

      You’re taking the position that there is no need to be cautious because you KNOW the outcome.

      You really do not.

      Why do you not believe the CDC?

  9. From the National Institutes of Health “News in Health” newsletter
    Antibodies Protect against COVID-19 Reinfection

    After having COVID-19, most people’s bodies develop antibodies to help fight it off. These are special molecules made by the body’s disease defense system, the immune system. A study found that people with these antibodies were less likely to get COVID-19 again.

  10. NIH Research Matters
    Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19

    At a Glance
    The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.
    The results provide hope that people receiving SARS-CoV-2 vaccines will develop similar lasting immune memories after vaccination.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      is your point that we don’t need boosters?

  11. DJRippert Avatar

    Costi Sifri, director of hospital epidemiology, said that vaccines are one of the best defenses against the virus. “They prevent infection and they are very effective in preventing hospitalization and other serious outcomes,”

    I’m not convinced.

    I went to a bachelor party in Vegas at the end of July. 9 of us attended. Everybody was vaccinated. Everybody wore masks indoors. As it turned out, there was a cybersecurity conference going on in Vegas at the same time. I called my buddy who runs a cybersecurity company to see if he happened to be in Vegas. He wasn’t but 9 of his employees were. All were vaccinated.

    Two of my party and five of the 9 cybersecurity people got COVID.

    That’s 7 out of 18 catching COVID over a 4 day period.

    Nobody got more sick than a cold or flu and everybody is recovered. But vaccines prevent infection? Do they really … with the Delta variant and after some months of getting your second shot?

    Los Angeles is reporting that 30% of the people now getting infected have been vaccinated.

    That’s lower than the percentage of residents who have been vaccinated but not by much.

    Meanwhile, there were 55 COVID deaths in Israel yesterday. The all time single day high was 79 dead in a day.

    Israel is one of the most vaccinated countries on Earth and they now have infections running at 75% of their peak in January.

    The problem seems to be that the almost all the vaccines in Israel were Pfizer and that vax is wearing off fast. So, the Israelis are giving booster (third) shots to anybody over 50. A bit of bad news there though … cases of breakthrough infection are already being seen in those who received the booster.


    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      DJR – do you know the difference between what is known as sterilizing immunity and immunity that is not?

      That’s a key issue with COVID and especially so with Delta.

      Our understanding is not complete, we are still learning , and the virus is evolving.

      At this point in time – what alternative do you have that is better than the vaccine?

      What should you do instead?

      1. DJRippert Avatar

        I understand the differences. I also understand that even the experts are wrong as often as they are right.

        Fauci is contesting the claim that Moderna is more effective than Pfizer. He says the study demonstrating that has not been sufficiently reviewed.

        I’ll bet this will be another case of observed reality trumping scientific theory.

        There is no good reason why Israel is having a surge other than the fact they were almost entirely Pfizer.

        What would I do instead?

        Release the booster shot to Americans over 50 – especially those who got the Pfizer vaccine.

        Stop acting like we actually understand everything that’s going on. Too many statements by the scientific establishment have been proven wrong. I can see why some people are hesitant.

        I’m sure Fauci et al think they are being helpful when they make strong statements based on weak evidence. But they aren’t.

        Mark my words – the Pfizer vax will be proven less effective against Delta than the Moderna vax. But so what? You just start giving out the booster.

        Fauci needs to learn how to let sleeping dogs lie. “No comment” and “We don’t know enough to answer that question yet” are perfectly acceptable answers.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          When they are wrong – and yes they are,do you think that’s because they are purposely lying or do you think they are finding out more as they go along and in the process finding out some of their earlier assessments were wrong?

          How would you do this process of learning as we go along – different?

          Their approach is to give their CURRENT assessment with the PROVISO that it could change.

          Fauci gives that caveat all the time.

          He caveats the hell out of his words.

        2. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          It appears that Larry has latched onto a new talking point, it’s called “sterilizing immunity. You can watch as he gets a new talking point, he’ll parrot that same item for days.

      2. Larry: “Our understanding is not complete, we are still learning , and the virus is evolving.”

        But trust the science as interpreted by the CDC at this point in time. And never, ever ask questions. If you do, you’re a COVID denier and you’re putting peoples’ lives at risk.

        Meanwhile, on the subject of CDC flip-flops:https://www.bing.com/search?q=cdc%20flip%20flops%20on%20covid&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=cdc%20flip%20flops%20on%20covi&sc=1-22&sk=&cvid=9D1113A2440F4BF99BF9390725DDEF5F

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Well no. You SHOULD ask questions, but that’s not exactly what you are doing. You are openly doubting the CDC and challenging what it says – as false.

          You’re basically saying that the CDC can be wrong (and it can) and that because of that, you’re free to discount it anytime and instead believe something else.

          When you show “flip-flops” did you bother to look at the URLs?

          it’s pretty telling… and that’s your
          “go to” argument – just look for what you like and disbelieve the CDC because clearly they’ve been wrong before.

  12. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Being protected both ways is best. No debate. Next question.

    I commend to you a line you used elsewhere. It also applies in this context. “I have no desire to inflict collateral damage on innocents.” The unvaccinated are doing exactly that. Especially in households with young children now back in school rooms. They catch it mainly at home from unvaccinated parents or older siblings.

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      My daughter had Covid (at UVA) just before Xmas break last year. This spring she also got the vaccine. No downside. I will get a booster as soon as I can. Again, no downside.

      1. There is a possible down-side!

        The vaccine can cause a little soreness in the arm and some lethargy.

        It prevents an infection which causes hospitalisation and death.

        You don’t have to be a genius to figure out the rewards out-weigh the risks.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          Not true or valid for all individuals.

          That pesky little thing called myocarditis in some specific individuals as well as extreme allergic reaction kind of say you’re not being truthful.

          1. DJRippert Avatar

            Must be something. When I got vaccinated I had to sit in a chair under observation 0f medical personnel. I asked why. They said some people had extreme reactions. I asked what they would do if that happened to me. They said they would jab me with an epipen full of something and take me to the ER.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Thus you weighed that risk and went about it, sua sponte.

            The larger issue at hand is the COVID recovered being treated like dirt when they aren’t “unvaccinated”. Nor are those who don’t wish to be vaccinated with the COVID-19 vaccine who partake in other vaccines “anti-vaxxers”. It’s just easier to attack someone when you remove their humanity.

          3. DJRippert Avatar

            Yes, I went about it of my own accord.

          4. “Must be something.”

            That something is PR.

            One dead person in a covid vaccine clinic would be broadcast all over GOP TV and other Russian propaganda networks.

            The net result would be millions of people refusing the vaccine and thousands dead (which is why the domestic and overseas enemies of the USA are so desperate to broadcast it).

            Public health experts want to avoid that outcome at all costs, so they make you wait 15 minutes just to be sure they don’t generate an anecdote that can be used to mislead.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The day they rolled out the EUA a healthcare worker who received it had a anaphylaxis reaction to it. Which is why they instituted the 15 minutes wait period you dolt.

            The sheer amount of disinformation your spouting is crazy.



          6. Exactly so, Matthew!

            You are angrily agreeing with me again.

            It doesn’t change a word of what I said. You can get an anaphylactic response from all kinds of things, but it’s not common.

            “Twenty-one cases were determined to be anaphylaxis (a rate of 11.1 per million doses administered), including 17 in persons with a documented history of allergies or allergic reactions, seven of whom had a history of anaphylaxis.”


          7. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            We are not agreeing on anything, you’ve made a statement that there is nothing to fear but a sore arm. That is statically false, the 15 minute wait period arose from anaphylactic response on the day the EUA was authorized.

            “It doesn’t change a word of what I said. You can get an anaphylactic response from all kinds of things, but it’s not common.”

            Umm prior to this vaccine mRNA that was not the case.

            “The incidence of anaphylactic or severe allergic reactions to vaccines is very low, less than one case per million vaccine doses. Larger studies from later years report no deaths. The cause of the reaction is usually not the immunizing antigen itself, but rather some other vaccine ingredient such as egg protein from the production process or gelatin added as a stabilizer. Most people with egg allergy can be vaccinated without any reaction. Vasovagal reactions with or without hyperventilation are common after vaccination. They can be rather dramatic and are often mistaken for anaphylactic reactions. Correct diagnosis is important in making it possible to vaccinate those who might otherwise run the risk of serious infections.”


            You should really stop commenting on topics to which your knowledge is a sum total of zero.

          8. “less than one case per million vaccine doses”


            That’s almost precisely the same rate, ya dingus!

            You’re funny. I like you, even though you’re an obnoxious a$$-hat.

          9. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Umm that was prior to the mRNA vaccines.


            You’re also now moving the goalposts, because you don’t know jacksh!t about what you’re talking about.

          10. lol! I didn’t say anything about when it happened, fartblossom!

            I said it’s the same rate.

            Whether 1 or 10 out of a million, it’s a fantastically small risk and the difference is statistical noise. It would be like saying it’s important to fear being hit by a meteor when you go outside.

            Yeah, it’s possible… but it’s not likely. It’s stupid to obsess over it.

            Meanwhile, the odds of dying from SARS‑CoV‑2 are around 10,000 in a million.

            Can you tell the difference between 1 and 10,000 Matthew?

            “in high-income countries, more than 1 in 100 people infected by the coronavirus died in the first wave.”


          11. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Except they aren’t occurring at the same rate, which you would’ve determined had you read what was cited.

            So again you’re moving the goalposts, shocked.

            Oh PS it’s 1 in 250k that you’ll be struck by a meteorite, you should really work on your math skills.

            “Meanwhile, the odds of dying from SARS‑CoV‑2 are around 10,000 in a million.”

            Gibberish statement.

            “Can you tell the difference between 1 and 10,000 Matthew?

            “in high-income countries, more than 1 in 100 people infected by the coronavirus died in the first wave.”

            Further gibberish statements that have nothing to do with your initial statement, also if I wanted to be called Matthew (which you’re attempting to use condescendingly) I would’ve wrote Matthew and not Matt.


            You’re a troll, now go back under your bridge.

          12. R. Kooi Avatar

            No name calling…particularly when you are comparing 630,000 deaths with 1 anaphylaxis reaction…..and mindlessly seeming to equate the two stats.

          13. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “R. Kooi an hour ago
            No name calling…particularly when you are comparing 630,000 deaths with 1 anaphylaxis reaction…..and mindlessly seeming to equate the two stats.”

            Umm not the comparison I made nor is it a single reaction or death.

            PS: If you have to up-vote yourself, you’re a moron.

          14. R. Kooi Avatar


          15. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Umm yeah, not really.

          16. I’m confused as to what he’s even saying.

            Is it “gibberish” that Covid kills 1% of the people it infects or is it “gibberish” that this is equivalent to 10,000 cases out of a million?

            If he’s picking a fight with mathematics, it’s not a fight he’ll win…

            “United States Coronavirus Deaths: 651,956”


          17. R. Kooi Avatar

            Matt Adams & His Mind Boggling Ignorance.

          18. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            The day they rolled out the EUA a healthcare worker who received it had a anaphylaxis reaction to it. Which is why they instituted the 15 minutes wait period you dolt.

            The sheer amount of disinformation your spouting is crazy.



          19. LarrytheG Avatar

            How many times has it actually happened? Did you ask that?

            How many folks have you heard that has happened to especially from the anti-vaxxers who say there are adverse reactions. I’m not sure I’ve heard of a single person.

            Don’t you think this might be a fairly standard protocol for vaccines in general?

            This particular vaccine seems to have almost no adverse reactions.. they’d be all over the news, no?

          20. DJRippert Avatar

            I didn’t ask because the medical tech who was watching me had little chance of knowing the answer in late February when I got vaccinated.

            I get the seasonal flu vaccine every year. Nobody watches me after I get jabbed.

            I don’t hear much about adverse reactions and I expect one would.

            Maybe this is a rare bit of news where the reality turned out better than the theory.

            Regardless, I’m a Pfizer man and I see what’s happening in Israel. I’ll take the booster jab as soon as I can sweet talk someone into giving me the shot.

          21. LarrytheG Avatar

            But you say you not convinced it is “safe”?

            You guys who say you’re “conservative” and don’t trust the govt or govt institutions but still get the shot – are hard to figure out sometimes.

            Now Haner has gone full monte and sounds like a progressive! 😉

          22. DJRippert Avatar

            I believe the vaccines are safe or I wouldn’t have gotten vaccinated and gotten my kids vaccinated.

            However, I can understand some people’s hesitancy without insisting they are stupid or selfish.

            Mr Haney does sound like a progressive. However, I think he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He knows anti-vaccine rhetoric will do the GOP no favors this Fall.

            Hell, even Trump got booed at a MAGA rally for telling the crowd the get vaccinated yesterday.

          23. LarrytheG Avatar

            Have you looked into what sterilizing immunity is?

          24. R. Kooi Avatar

            It is not something…it is, at the most, next to nothing, but they still watch for it…They Are True PROFESSIONALS.….

          25. R. Kooi Avatar

            A few cases that medical professionals are guarding you against…as thousands are still dying of COVID…

            Millions are dying around the globe.

            630,000 U.S. dead and Climbing ….likely that will reach about 3/4rds of a million some time after the 1st of the year….particularly likely if we listen to GROTESQUE EXAGGERATIONS you spew, routinely.

          26. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            None of what you said is relevant. The poster said there was no consequence to receive the vaccine. That as a whole is false, for some people there is something beyond a sore arm.

            Nether of the two of you trolls are educated not have you made a salient point.

          27. R. Kooi Avatar

            630,000 dead in just the USA
            Millions dead around the world.
            Millions who suffered for weeks and months in the USA.
            Tens of thousands with what may be life long ailments, just in the USA.

            and all you do is play games with sophistry.

          28. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Umm naw, all you’re doing is providing red herrings to an argument you’re I’ll equipped to have. None of that changes the fact that some people can have fatal consequences if they receive the vaccine.

            Thus most people who could have those sort of reactions have not partaken.

            Stop using words you don’t understand, you’re a morn and will continue to be a moron from here on out.

          29. R. Kooi Avatar

            Besides YOUR name calling childishness without any substance or facts to justify it.

            Now it is 650,000 dead Americans…parents, friends and neighbors…in my case, my Brother who worked his arss off to catch every breath for 2 1/2 months!

            You CALL those deaths RED HERRINGS???

            There have been virtually NO DEATHS
            once folks have received their vaccines!
            …no matter how untruthful YOU CHOOSE TO BE!
            …no matter how cavalier you are about Husbands & Wives, Mothers or Fathers, Sons & Daughters have died in agony…..without their vaccines!
            that doesn’t consider how many millions of men & women, children
            who could have avoided weeks in hospital ICUs if only they had gotten their vaccines.

            TODAY’S surge of dreadful illness in hospitals is completely THOSE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN VACCINATED!

            YOU LIE when you say vaccines have deadly effects….that is a simpletons LIE!

      2. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Sua Sponte, your inability to see a downside only pertains to you.

    2. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      “The unvaccinated are doing exactly that.”

      When making statements it’s best to not conflate two separate groups.

      Those who have had COVID and recovered are not the same and unvaccinated. One group presents an immunity to infection the other does not.

      However, if you want to discuss how natural is lacking compared to vaccine, you’d also be questioning if your vaccine was efficacious. Vaccines are used as a substitution for natural immunity when outcomes from contraction are not worth the risk.

      1. dick dyas Avatar
        dick dyas

        Who told you that previously infected persons are immune for life? I think both groups lose immunity over time. Also, I read that previously infected people that receive a booster have exponential increases in antibodies.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Yes. that’s what I’ve read also. There is no magic in getting your antibodies from COVID except in the minds of te stubborn.

        2. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          “Who told you that previously infected persons are immune for life”

          Humm interesting, can you point to where I said that or are you going to go with that strawman?

  13. DJRippert Avatar

    The theory says that if almost everybody gets vaccinated we’ll all be fine. That theory just isn’t holding up in Israel. The Israelis are highly vaccinated and in the midst of a serious surge. Even though a very high percentage of eligible Israelis have been vaccinated that country is now at 75% of its all time peak in infections.

    Despite lagging, deaths are now picking up in Israel too.

    It sure looks to me like these vaccines are not as effective against infection as we first thought and don’t confer immunity for nearly as long as we hoped.

    Let’s hope they really do protect against serious illness and death and that those protections don’t “fall off a cliff’ after 5 – 8 months.

  14. Handstowork Avatar

    And no mention of Ivermectin or Hydroxychloroquine.

  15. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Doing the things that succesful people do is no guarantee of success, but doing the things that failures do is a path of certainty.

    Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and Florida are monumental failures with the rise of Covid-Delta. We cannot simply whistle past the graveyard looking at the metrics of cases in Virginia while saying, “Look! We’re doing great!” We better make sure we avoid “The Southern Strategy”.

    Monday so soon? I see that NCP Wojak has arrived.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Hawaii called and said you’re full of sh!t per usual.

      Hows about we dox you and watch all of your lies fall away?

      Edit: I apologize, I’ll refer to you for what you really are. The offspring of Jody.

  16. LarrytheG Avatar

    If you look at what happens with the flu every year,

    Flu vaccines lose effectiveness also and new ones have to be developed annually.

    Why is it if you do get the flu, you don’t then get lifetime immunity?

    Here’s an interesting article about that:

    Why do we develop lifelong immunity to some diseases, but not others?
    By Isobel Whitcomb August 09, 2020

    Will our immunity to COVID-19 be lifelong or short-lived?


    I’m not advocating that it’s true or not. I’m saying we really don’t know yet and if we don’t know, what is the prudent thing to do? Not get a booster?

  17. Verified Former Utility Exec Avatar
    Verified Former Utility Exec

    Wow, this is dangerous territory, Doctor Bacon.

    I have a good friend who nearly died from COVID in January. He has an underlying condition but is pretty healthy. He got both doses of the vax in April. His doc requires monthly blood work. As of last month, he no longer has COVID antibodies. But he still has antibodies from the vax.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      “As of last month, he no longer has COVID antibodies. But he still has antibodies from the vax.”


      One of those items cannot be true if the other is not true. you either have antibodies or you don’t. Outside of that antibodies aren’t the whole aspect of immunity.

      1. Verified Former Utility Exec Avatar
        Verified Former Utility Exec

        Not according to his physician, a board-certified infectious disease doc. The virus has a different signature than the mRNA.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          You cannot determine the difference between the vaccine antibodies and the virus antibodies.

    2. I recently heard of an elderly couple in our neighborhood, both of whom were double vaccinated, who fell very ill from a COVID infection. Anecdotes are interesting, but they’re just anecdotes. We need comprehensive data.

      I’m not arguing against vaccinations. I’m saying we need a better measure of immunity than vaccination status. I’m also saying that among the unvaccinated, we need to distinguish between those who survived a COVID infection and those who did not. What’s the dangerous territory?

    3. R. Kooi Avatar

      God how I love people with axes to grind quoting & their annecdotal stories…unvarified with no one objectively able to describe events with out the veil of ideology.

  18. Peter Samuel Avatar
    Peter Samuel

    Here’s a recently published study that supports Mr Bacon’s theme that “natural immunity” by way of infection and recovery from covid 19 is more robust than vaccine-generated immunity. To quote the authors: “natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.” see https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I does indeed conclude that. Thanks for posting it.

  19. David Alexander Avatar
    David Alexander

    It appears that the antibody test is of academic interest only and gives you no useful information …. https://questdirect.questdiagnostics.com/products/covid-19-immune-response/b580e541-78a5-48a6-b17b-7bad949dcb57

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      Might also be worth checking the Red Cross to see how they are dealing with COVID.

      Could someone with no symptoms give blood and then that blood have COVID in it and infect a recipient?

      I don’t know the answer or much else about the issue but was required to wear a mask when donating and on a prior donation was notified that my donation had COVID antibodies in it ( I got both shots way back when).

      As usual, I tend to go to the CDC for their opinion and value it over other individual studies unless there are additional studies that replicate the results of the original study.

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