At the Request of AZA

AZA contacted EMR and said that the second half of his comment on the 25,000 jobs lost post by Jim Bacon has been deleted three times since 8:00 this AM. (The time stamp on the Blog is off by an hour.)

EMR saw the third attempt to post when it was up at about noon. It is gone again. AZA asked that EMR read over his comment and if it made sense, to post it as an original post since Jim had asked a question raised by the first part when the second part was removed.

EMR is pleased that former students can understand what EMR has been saying and often get ahead of him. AZA’s comment seems like a fair statement and may temper Jim’s tone at the Whoop Ass session later today.

Here is AZA’s revised complete post that was originally forced to be divided in two because of length and the second half deleted on three occasions:


Mr. Bacon asked:

“AZA, If it makes economic sense for there medical facilities to be based on the scale of the territory served – Neighborhood, Villages, Communities, Regions, etc. — then you have to explain why that distribution does not exist today.”

We would refer those who do not yet understand this issue to Professor Risse’s treatise The Shape of the Future (SotF). In Volume I he demonstrates that the organic framework does exist but that human economic, social and physical activities are not yet distributed based on organic reality for reasons that he spells out in the book.

Some Agency malfunctions result in bad regulations as you suggest. No sane person would disagree.

However, as eggs, hamburger and salad greens that are intended for humans consumption; as deep well drilling to tap the last of the stored natural capital; and as the demise of Maytag – to say noting of the collapse of the housing finance structure – demonstrate, it is Enterprise malfunction and rigged markets that are at the roots of many of societies worst dysfunctions.

As Katrina demonstrates often major disasters are a combination of malfunctioning Agency, Enterprise and Institutional activities in a context of human ignorance parading as ‘culture,’ ‘freedom,’ ‘patriotism’ or gods will.

“The idea of making different types of medical services available at different geographic levels is an elegant one.”

Yes, and it is also a condition precedent for efficiency and effectiveness in the delivery of all the services upon which humans depend for health, safety and welfare.

“But economies of scale will continually change with new technology and new delivery models.”

The illusion that churn, flux and ‘innovation’ will continue or accelerate is just that an optimistic illusion, a Myth. Natural systems do not work that way. They ebb and flow. Humans are running out of resources (including natural capital) to fund the luxury of continual change and ‘innovation.’ Professor Risse addressed this 10 years ago in the ‘Past Shock’ section in Vol II of SotF.

(End of Part 1)

The next really big innovation in medicine will be delivering a doctor to the bedside by wire. Not the doctors image or the patients image but the doctor himself. Do not hold your breath for this innovation to occur.

Even today the vast majority of the medical ‘solutions’ are available to only a very few at the very top of Ziggurat. It these procedures and interventions were subsidized so all citizens could benefit, the medical costs alone would bankrupt society long before Boomergeddon.

This reality is a key problem with Enterprise provision of medical services. It is EXACTLY like the drivers of the Affordable and Accessible Housing Crisis about which Professor Risse pontificates. Trickle Down does NOT work for any except those at the very top of the Ziggurat.

Trickle Down drives the Wealth Gap.

“Who decides what is appropriate at which level on an ongoing basis? Whom do you trust to do that, if not the marketplace?”

The only answer we have ever heard that COULD actually work and preserve Democracy and market economies is “enlightened Citizens.”

It is not regulations (Agencies), not markets (Enterprises) and not faith or Myths (Institutions) that alone can achieve what Prof. Risse calls a sustainable trajectory for civilization.

Citizens are the voters, the owners and the members of Agencies, Enterprises and Institutions.

Citizens and their Households are also the sole members of the New Fourth Estate.

As Professor Risse demonstrates in THE ESTATES MATRIX that it takes all FOUR legs of the MATRIX to manage a modern technologically based society.

As demonstrated by eggs, hamburger, etc. noted above ‘markets’ can only be a rational distributor of the resources necessary to support health safety and welfare of society IF citizens are well informed and all Four Estates work in harmony.

Enterprise controlled markets will always work to optimize short term profits not the happiness, safety or long term sustainability of citizens, Households or civilization.

The only possible ‘solution’ is for citizens to understand the need for and them support implementation of :

Fundamental Transformation of governance structure (Agency Transformation – including rational regulation with controls, programs, policies and education exercised at the level of impact.)

Fundamental Transformation of economic structure (Enterprise Transformation – a market economy is essential but they must be enlightened markets and Enterprise scale is as important as Agency scale.)

Fundamental Transformation of human settlement pattern (This is essential so that citizens and their Households and their Organizations (Agencies, Enterprises, and Institutions) – can manage society.)

In this context blaming the current president for killing 25,000 jobs as Mr. Bacon’s earlier post does is not just wrong, it feeds the Anger of Ignorance.

Larry G’s cautionary note about the Google searches is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. That is why tossing rocks at empty pigeon holes (or tossing cans of Glen Beck Red Meat Whoop Ass) is akin to yelling FIRE in a crowded theater.

That is also why civilization as we know it may be doomed.

Pandering governance practitioners, including those selling ‘traditional values’ as well as Enterprises (including MainStream Media) and Institutions (especially the political Clans) have been lying to citizens to stoke Mass OverConsumption.

For their part, citizens are not taking responsibility for the collective impact of their actions.

The longer the meaningless rock tossing goes on, the less chance of citizens making better choices at Google and everywhere else.


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12 responses to “At the Request of AZA”

  1. Anonymous Avatar

    Why does this say there are six comments, but none appear?


  2. So, it's no secret that I disagree with EMR on almost every level of what he talks about; but here is my question to AZA. You talk about “enlightened Citizens.” And what about the non-enlightened citizens? Please don't tell me that we'll somehow educate them all, because frankly a bunch of them don't WANT to be 'enlightened'. A considerable group don't like high school, don't do well in high school and, in fact, don't even finish high school. There is another sizable group who are hell-bent upon quick riches and parties (read that drug dealers and gangs); they have no use to be enlightened. The either/both groups are formidable and no amount of EMR's new urbanization is going to change them or work for them. So the question is how are you going to deal with these folk?

  3. Anonymous Avatar

    AZA adds two notes:


    As far as I can recall you do not “disagree with EMR on almost every level.”

    I have not talked to him about this but if you have read carefully his work you would find he has the same opinion as you on the large number of high school (and productive society) ‘drop outs.’

    In fact there is a SYNERGY strategy that revolves around the 20% / 60% / 20% Rule.

    It is why democracy with super majorities is so important and why governance at the Cluster and Neighborhood is so important.

    There are always 20 % percent who disagree with any new initiative, drop out, shop lift, cheat on their wife, steal from their employer, suspect their neighbor is a terrorist, believe the Earth is flat, are sure man never got to the moon, etc.

    There is some overlap in this group from issue to issue but the 20% number is quite consistent.

    However, with sound information, intelligent leadership and an open democratic process at the scale of the issue in question, between 65 and 85 percent almost always come to a consensus on individual, specific Principles to guide activities of society.

    Forcing a 51% majority at the wrong scale or giving a bull horn to a 05% or even 35% minority is a sure path to Collapse of society.


    The reason that some posts were deleted is that I asked for them to be deleted. While Professor Risse does not bother to read posts by the negative 20% crowd, I do and find them offensive and dangerous.

    It is a core problem with the Internet, it gives the fringe a bull horn and scares away the 60% in the middle. My problem is that the flamers discourage those in the middle from finding out the truth. Illusion is a safe haven for all manner of Myth believers and ‘drop outs.’

    Take for instance the comment: “Humans may go the way of the Maytag but they will churn and flux and innovate until the end.”

    As we noted in the post: “Humans are running out of resources (including natural capital) to fund the luxury of continual change and ‘innovation.”

    In the context of costly medical innovation that comment cannot dismissed without identifying a source of resources to continue to rate of flux since The Long Depression. See The Crab Grass Frontier and Professor Risse’s discussion in The Shape of the Future. For all but those at the top of the Ziggurat the pace of changed has already slowed greatly except for standing by the side of the road and watching the super rich and the political insiders zoom by.


  4. Anonymous Avatar

    AZA again:

    Let me correct one word:

    Instead of 'truth' in the sentence about what the 60% can find out, I should have said 'find out their own enlightened self-interest"

    Thank You


  5. Anonymous Avatar

    I want to thank all of you for the great feedback via Email.

    I will be posting a couple of suggestions and notes that reflect these comments.

    Also thanks to Dr. Risse for deleting the spam.


  6. Anonymous Avatar

    What is wrong with ‘Hydra’?

    Does he think he has the right to intrude onto every discussion just because it is on the Internet. It should be clear by nots that his comments are unwelcome and irrelevant in addition to being snide and demeaning.

    He has not more right to that than I do to tromp across his hay field and shoot his hummingbirds.

    By the way CNN picked up another “Fracking” story.


  7. E M Risse Avatar

    After posting earlier today, AZA seems to have run afoul of Blogspot again.

    He asked EMR to post for him.

    From AZA:

    As noted earlier we have received a number of comments on this post, several on the 20% / 60% / 20% Rule.

    I talked to Professor Risse briefly about these and he suggested that they be posted here so everyone can give them consideration.


    Although there is much overlap among the Negative 20% cohort, almost everyone is in the Negative 20% on SOME issue. That is fine because they then know how it feels when 80% think a specific Principle is on the right track and they do not.


    A major reason for working on a Principle until there is a 65% to 85% buy in (85% is about the best one can expect on a significant Principle) is that in actual field tests with settlement pattern Principles this level of agreement always includes the Golden Rule Test of the interests of the 35% to 15% who are in the minority.


    There will always be a few (0.5 to 2.5%) who will never agree of even acquiesce to the majority. One of the hardest things for a society to do at any scale form Dooryard to Global is to drop the hammer on those individuals. The percentage of people behind bars in the US indicates we find it easier than most. The key is to never allow for mean-spirited oppression or persecution.

    Dr. Risse suggested that I note the discussion of Principles in SotF (especially in Chapters 13 and 17) and the importance of agreement of Principles in the Three Step, HANDBOOK Process.

    He also noted the importance of sorting ‘freedom’ from ‘selfishness’ especially in the context of the cumulative impact of citizen’s well intended actions.

    By the way, if you have not heard from Professor Risse in a while he reports that he has more work and more speaking and fora engagements scheduled this fall than at any time in the last decade. Banks, Chambers of Commerce and MainStream Media editorial boards are beginning to understand that what we have been saying for two decades is directly related to Enterprise bottom lines.

    This may also have something to do with increased frenzy by those who hope the details of his work remain shrouded in the smoke of false accusations.


  8. "Although there is much overlap among the Negative 20% cohort, almost everyone is in the Negative 20% on SOME issue. That is fine because they then know how it feels when 80% think a specific Principle is on the right track and they do not."


    That is why you need a systems engineering approach that is designed to achieve the lowest total SYSTEMS cost. This is financially and mathematically the end result of having a perfect concensus.

    The simplest and highest level experssion of that idea is that Total Cost = Production Cost + External Cost + Government cost.

  9. Anonymous Avatar

    There is nothing wrong with the Total Cost = equation…

    Except that it is meaningless unless there are definitions for each term and consensus on the Principles controlling to the distribution of costs and benefits.

    One of the first Principles to agree on is that ‘cheap’ for some consumers is not necessarily good for society.

    Given 13,000 years of inequitable distribution of guns, germs and steel, there must be democratic process to allocate resources.

    Simplistic formulae and engineering solutions are what the current unsustainable trajectory is based on, they are not a silver bullet.

    That is especially the case when they are championed by those who have proven unable to understand the need for a fair allocation of location-variable costs.


  10. Anonymous Avatar

    All this whining about ‘censorship’ reminds me of a story about an adjacent farmer here in Upstate New York when all the farmers in this valley were on a party line.

    When he heard a call going through, he would butt in an harangue both parties about how “someone” was letting cows into his hay field.

    He was not aware that everyone knew it was his cows that were breaking down the fences because he had not provided a place for them to get water in the pasture he was trying to keep them.


  11. Anonymous Avatar

    A very important result of the current discussion has been a Draft Threshold Screening Test for comments on human settlement pattern posts. It was drafted by a frequent commentor on this site and the circulated for review by others.

    The threshold screen determines if the candidate commentor understands the topic as a prerequisite to commenting. It is akin to the test that professional taste testers must pass before they render subjective judgements on food and wine.

    Thanks to all those who helped. We hope that when Dr. Risse is back in town he will endorse this process.

    George Anderson

  12. Anonymous Avatar

    Censoring comments by Hydra is an intellectually corrupt response to perfectly valid criticisms of nonsense theories and whacko ideas promoted by EM Risse.

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