Mamas, Don’t Let Your Daughters Grow up To Be Co-Eds

Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house at UVa.

Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house at UVa.

When I visited Virginia Tech a few weeks ago, the lead story in the campus newspaper was a take-out on the supposed “campus rape culture.” The number is widely touted that 20% of women are the victims of sexual assault while at campus. My instinct is to dismiss that figure as a figment of the feminist fringe, in which transgressions of any kind, from unwanted touching to real rape, are conflated as “sexual violence.” Many incidents are fueled by the combustible combination of rampant drunkenness and the casual sex of the hook-up culture, in which all normal standards of behavior are obliterated.

That said, rape that everyone recognizes as rape does occur. One such incident, which allegedly occurred at the University of Virginia, is profiled in Rolling Stone. The story of a first year student gang raped in the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house, if accurate, is absolutely horrifying. What allegedly followed (or didn’t follow) is a travesty. Writes author Sabrina Rubin Erdely:

At UVA, rapes are kept quiet, both by students – who brush off sexual assaults as regrettable but inevitable casualties of their cherished party culture – and by an administration that critics say is less concerned with protecting students than it is with protecting its own reputation from scandal. Some UVA women, so sickened by the university’s culture of hidden sexual violence, have taken to calling it “UVrApe.”

Maybe that’s a fair take on what’s happening at UVa and other colleges, maybe it’s not. There are a lot of conservatives like me whom, I suspect, get turned off by the blather associating campus sexual violence with “patriarchal attitudes” and other such nonsense, as if society ever condoned rape as a “boys will be boys” thing to be swept under the rug. It was social conservatives, after all, who warned that the mixing of genders in college dormitories, the relaxation of visitation rules and the collapse of traditional moral values would lead to precisely the phenomenon we’re discussing today. Such fears were dismissed at the time, of course, as the hilariously antiquated thinking of prissy, tea-sipping old bitties.

But here we are. Feminists have discovered a “culture of rape” in what are arguably the most thoroughly enlightened and liberal institutions in the entire country, our colleges and universities. While I don’t think the Rolling Stone article has captured the entire truth of what’s happening on college campuses, I think it has captured part of the truth. And even that partial truth is ugly enough to take very seriously.

I would ask Virginia newspapers, why did Rolling Stone break this story, not you? If there is a campus rape epidemic on college campuses, are you going to continue to ignore it, highlighting only the cable news spectacles, like that of missing UVa student Hannah Graham, that are unrepresentative of the college experience? Conversely, if there’s not a campus rape epidemic, are you going to ignore that story, too? If the whole problem is wildly exaggerated — analogous, say, to the satanism scare of a couple decades ago — worried parents of college co-eds would like to know.

My suspicion is that there is a widespread problem but that it’s not as white-and-black as portrayed. College kids are… how shall I put this politely…. incredibly horny. The old social mores that held horniness in check have been obliterated. Concentrate thousands of males and females of the same age in a college campus, tear down the moral inhibitions against promiscuous sexuality, and dissolve inhibitions and judgment in a haze of alcohol, and you’re going to have a lot of sexual encounters, some percentage of which, in retrospect, are worthy of criminal punishment and some percentage of which participants simply regret. There is a cultural problem here. It’s not one of oppressive “patriarchy.” But it’s very real.

(Hat tip: The Nutshell by Frank Muraca. Check out Frank’s newsletter — it’s a short but punchy round-up of Virginia news, well worth reading.)

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81 responses to “Mamas, Don’t Let Your Daughters Grow up To Be Co-Eds

  1. you’re demonstrating exactly what an old white guy is here…

    one rape is one too many but we unfortunately have a “culture” (a word you seem to like) of aggression towards women.

    we’re more enlightened than much of the rest of the 3rd world on this – but ours is – like racism – vestiges – where women have been treated as objects .. by guys.. no other way to say it.

    Our society – our commercials, our morals in pro-sports – ooze it.

    Are there nasty “feminists” … “out there”? you bet… but I’ll take a feminist any day over the predatory scum among us..

    violence against women is not some sort of feminist mythology… it’s real and it occurs and we forgive the perpetrator and blame the victim way too often.

  2. Mr. Bacon, the 20% statistics is based upon one web-based survey. Many people have pointed out the methodological flaws in a self-selecting response body. Additionally, what has been lost over the years is that the question defined sexual assault as including “unwanted comments” and actions which took place when one or both or more of the participants incapacitated. And over time, “sexual assault” has morphed into “rape and sexual assault” to just “rape” (in the more inflamatory blogs). If you compare that number with the numbers generated by local law enforcement, you see a great gap between what is tracked as sexual assault and rape by law enforcement agencies and what the DoE counts as rape on College Campuses.
    Also, many women, when asked why they did not report the assault to local law enforcement, stated that they did not feel that the specific incident rose to the level a criminal action. Since verbal comments are included in that definition of sexual assault, I can see why some women did not feel that they were the victims of a crime.
    Look at it this way: What parent would knowing send their daughter to a place where her chances of being raped over the course of her college career are one in five. To do the math: there are 24,000 plus students at UVa. Assuming a 50-50 ratio between male and females (which will undercount women but which makes the math easier), you have 12,000 co-eds at UVa. 20% of 12,00 is 2,400. Assuming a four-year career at UVa, that means 600 women at UVa will suffer a sexual assault every school year. That is, on average, over two women a night during the traditional school year. Wow, how can the student newspaper not be full of these stories daily, given that number? While the 20% number is still cited, I treat that number as very suspect, given all the flaws in how that number was derived.
    And before the flamers come out in droves, yes I agree that some of the frats treat women as sexual objects to be “used, abused, and thrown away.” Focus on stopping frat hosted parties designed to get women drunk and then assaulted/raped, and you will cut down on these stories significantly.

    • no flames but I presume we can get the right stats ..without playing the “we got the wrong stats” game.

      I don’t hold the “unwanted comments” and the like as legitimate but if we got rape-only stats – should we change anything ?

      how about this.

      Is the incidence of actual rape – the same or different than actual rape in the general population?

    • Those are the reasons why I’m inclined to dismiss the one-in-five statistic as fabricated. But the gang rape described in the Rolling Stone article is a heinous crime by any definition. We cannot allow that to be swept under the rug.

    • “Mr. Bacon, the 20% statistics is based upon one web-based survey.”

      No it isn’t. It’s supported by research from the 80s done by Mary Koss and again in a 2000 report from the DOJ using phone survey results taken in 1997 that found the likelihood of a woman experiencing rape (defined as what Bacon would call “rape we all recognize as rape”) was between one fifth and one quarter. (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf)

      “Additionally, what has been lost over the years is that the question defined sexual assault as including ‘unwanted comments’…”

      Care to substantiate that with a link?

      “…and actions which took place when one or both or more of the participants incapacitated.”

      I assume you mean drunk, which doesn’t matter. Drunk rape is still rape. Drunk assault is still assault. Not sure why this is so hard for people. If I’m out at a bar and a drunk dude punches me in the face does the assault charge just not count? If he’s drunk and talking trash and I punch him in the face does the assault charge magically disappear? Of course not. But all of the sudden when a woman is drunk then rape gets taken off the table.

      “Wow, how can the student newspaper not be full of these stories daily, given that number?”

      Wow, because women frequently don’t report rape and sexual assault, because, wow, when they do charming folks like yourself trot out the “drunken slattern” line of reasoning. Wow!

    • And for some reason I can no longer post multiple links in a response without getting tagged as spam let me reply to this:

      ” you see a great gap between what is tracked as sexual assault and rape by law enforcement agencies and what the DoE counts as rape on College Campuses.”

      With:

      http://mic.com/articles/104180/if-anyone-asks-why-sexual-assault-victims-don-t-just-go-to-the-police-show-them-this

  3. Jim,
    Thought police is one thing. So are false accusations. But gang rape and abuse by a beer bottle are way over the top. So is being advised to hush it up.

    Funny, but I was told about the story this morning by WTJU at UVA and commented on it during my weekly 9 a.m. political talk show on Soundboard.

    I said that female students at UVA should protest the hell out of this. Where are they? Damned, when I was in college Up North, the radical SDS picketed a frat for using Boston Combat Zone hookers to entice pledges.

    If UVa tolerates this kind of, that is a tragedy. It speaks of smug, rich white guys with a huge sense of entitlement. The hell with them. And if the “co eds” (bad choice of words, showing sexism on your part, BTW, I mean DAMN, Bacon, it is 2014, not 1954!) go along with this, they are spineless.

    • I totally, agree, UVa cannot sweep this incident under the rug. I would caution, we have heard similar stories before — anyone remember the Duke rape case? — that turned out not to be true. Even privileged white frat boys are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That said, this story is so horrifying that it needs to be investigated. The UVa administration cannot wish it away.

  4. And another thing. I will never forget one summer morning when I had the early police beat at a Norfolk newspaper. There was a dead body on a municipal ball park — a 20-year-old girl.

    She had been at a foosball parlor with some boys from locally-prominent families. She was a tease and flirted. They smoked pot and had beer. They drove her away. They ended up at the ball field and insisted she do them all. She said no. They did anyway. According to court testimony, she was hysterical and crying. She said she’d tell.

    The boys huddled together in a kind of board of directors meeting. Their decision: death by tire iron.

    I saw her body. Cute, nice, naked, she lay on her back in the morning dew. The police had already put tiny plastic bags on her feet and hands. Her face looked like a Picasso painting.

    • and I love the way that guys determine the legitimacy of sexual harassment sorta like white guys determining what is racism…

      and so if you have a women who has a view of what sexism is – she is summarily marginalized by guys who discount the legitimacy of her views – as a woman.

      how many women are beat up, raped and murdered every year by their husband and boyfriends – including their college “friends”?

      let’s turn it around. How many guys are killed or raped by predatory women? (don’t laugh, it does happen but it’s lopsided as hell.. something like 1000 to 1.

      Yet, it’s the guys who determine the legitimacy of the women’s complaints.

      go figure.

      • You move pretty quickly from sexual harassment and sexism to rape and murder. It seems to me that those are two very different things. Well, actually four very different things.

        Sexism is attitudinal and it is certainly a two way street. I can’t count the number of times a woman told me that a company should send a woman in to talk to a customer because that customer is a woman. Is that sexist? If a man said that a company should only send a man in to see a male customer is that sexist? It seems to me that both men and women have a right to participate in the discussion over what constitutes sexism.

        Sexual harassment is situational. The same comment that might be annoying in a singles bar can be cause for dismissal at work. The idea that men and women who work together won’t date is one of the most naive ideas I’ve ever heard. So, what are the rules? Again, it seems to me that both sexes have a right to be “at the table” for that discussion.

        Assault, rape and murder are criminal acts which are clearly defined in the law. I am not sure what discussion needs to occur. If those fraternity men are arrested, tried and found guilty of what they are accused of doing they need to go to prison. What’s to discuss?

        • If I gave a wrong impression – my bad – but the problem all along on the continuum from sexism, sexual harassment and rape – as judged by guys has been less than satisfying to many women.

          murder is in it’s own realm but it has something in common with the other 3 when it comes to men’s attitudes towards women and violence to women.

          I just point out the incidence of violence of one sex to the other that runs the gamut from emotional and mental to physical – it’s endemic in the history of men’s treatment of women and you don’t have to go far in this current world to find modern-day examples … you provide sex or you die…

          so did I get it all confused?

        • Men should so be at the table when we’re discussing what counts as sexism.

          Also:

          Employers should be at the table to discuss what the employees consider safe working conditions.

          Super PACs need to be at the table when we’re discussing campaign finance reform.

          Johnnie Williams should be at the table to help us define ethical behavior of state politicians.

  5. As a UVA grad I am hoping that there is more to the story than what was written in the Rolling Stone. I mean this is a case of forcible rape and assault. How can the Charlottesville police just stand by? Don’t they have an obligation to investigate felonies when they are brought to the attention of the police? And what kind of friends find a woman with ripped clothes and blood on her talking about being forcibly gang raped and say, “Oh, forget it. I don’t want to ruin my party reputation by taking you to the hospital.”? Last and worst – what about the accused rapists? Putting aside the unbelievable pathology of doing what they are accused of doing – didn’t they worry that the victim would go straight to the police and land them in prison for years? Even pathologically evil career criminals worry about getting caught. These guys beat and forcibly gang raped a girl who knew them by name in their own house and never wondered about the possible repercussions?

    Something doesn’t seem right about this. Or, these guys are not only the most evil, twisted students in the history of UVA but they are the stupidest too. Hopefully, the police already have them in custody and are questioning them now.

    • you know.. maybe I’m wrong but this feels a little like the Catholic Church with known pedafiles in their ranks

      Do we have colleges that know these kinds of things are going on and they see it as such a direct and dire threat to their reputation that they cannot respond – they have serious conflicts of interest?

      I too, like Don – wonder how in the world something like this can happen and it surfaces in a magazine and not College or City Police?

      http://mic.com/articles/104442/9-times-college-officials-said-the-worst-things-about-sexual-assault

      oh – and –

      ” How often does rape happen?
      One in four college women report surviving rape or attempted rape at some point in their lifetime. These are anonymous reports on multi-campus surveys sampling thousands of college students nationwide (Fisher, Cullen & Turner, 2000; Tjaden & Thoennes, 2006). This rate has remained the same since studies in the 1980s (Koss, Gidycz, & Wisniewki, 1987).

      not exactly one-shot data.

      • I think you have to divide these situations up along a spectrum. A drunk guy and a drunk girl meet at a party and go back to one of their dorm rooms. The next morning somebody has regrets. The accusations fly. Does this happen on college campuses? You bet. Does this happen in bars on M St in Georgetown? You bet. Is it rape? The guy and girl were both legally intoxicated. Neither could give consent but they both willingly participated. Then you have a situation where a woman is so incredibly drunk that she’s staggering around and maybe even vomiting. Some scumball who has probably been drinking himself decides to take advantage of the situation. Does this happen? You bet. Is this rape? Yes. How often does it get reported? Probably not often. Is it prosecutable? Not usually. Both parties will claim to have been intoxicated. The accused will claim that the victim seemed reasonably sober. By the next morning when the accusations get leveled it will be impossible to accurately say just how inebriated each of the two were.

        The issue in this story is not willing sex between partners where consent may not have been possible due to willing intoxication. It is a case of assault and forcible gang rape. There is no nuance or gray area in this situation. Is it possible that college administrations condone this? I just can’t imagine that.

        • ” The issue in this story is not willing sex between partners where consent may not have been possible due to willing intoxication. It is a case of assault and forcible gang rape. There is no nuance or gray area in this situation. Is it possible that college administrations condone this? I just can’t imagine that.”

          I agree but it was it really not reported – at all? That’s hard to believe but possible.

          I just think how a guy looks at this – and how a women looks at it – are different and like it is with whites having different views of discrimination from blacks – I think I’ve seen way too much denial when men are making decisions about pursuing these reports.

          too many have gone nowhere and the victims are encouraged to not pursue it… and you have an excellent example of this right now with Bill Cosby.

          in other words, I discount what the guys say.. they have a bad track record of doing the right thing…

        • “I think you have to divide these situations up along a spectrum.”

          You’re wrong.

          “A drunk guy and a drunk girl meet at a party and go back to one of their dorm rooms. The next morning somebody has regrets. The accusations fly.”

          This has never happened to me nor anyone I know nor any of the drunken women I palled around with nor has any research ever borne this out to be true. Women know the difference between “Oh, man, I really wish I hadn’t slept with that dude” and “Oh, man, I don’t remember sleeping with that dude.”

          “Is it possible that college administrations condone this? I just can’t imagine that.”

          That’s because you’re naive.

          • Sorry you’ve never been involved in a drunk hook up. I am pretty sure it happens though.

            Most of the time both parties just go about their business the next day even if they have regrets. Sometimes, if one of them has a boyfriend or girlfriend, things get strange. There have been several cases where colleges who threw men out under these circumstances have been successfully sued by the men.

            If you told me that college administrations look the other way at these cases I’d believe it. Colleges are really not at all prepared to conduct investigations and they certainly can be sued. Beyond that, the police and prosecutors usually won’t get involved.

            Forcible rape of an unwilling participant is a whole different matter. This isn’t a drunken hook up between willing participants too sloshed to fully know what they are doing. This is a clear felony that should send the perpetrators, if convicted, to prison for decades.

            Maybe I am naive but I have a hard time believing that college administrators would look the other way at something like that. If this is proven and the administrators did look the other way not only should the perpetrators be incarcerated but the administrators should be dismissed.

          • ” There have been several cases where colleges who threw men out under these circumstances have been successfully sued by the men.”

            and you have to wonder why the College did not threaten to report it to the Police if there was resistance…

            get it in writing from the guy – that he agrees to leave in exchange for not having it reported to the authorities.. and if he sues stick him.

            What keeps the schools from automatically reporting this to the authorities to start with – and just get out of it all together – and let it be between the two principles and make it clear that the College is not going to be a buffer or impediment to the reporting ?

            If they did that – how many guys would be so sure that what they did was not “really” a serious issue?

            The schools have involved themselves in ways that – ultimately – do a disservice to many of the women who are young and not really sure what has happened much like all those gals apparently involved with Mr. Cosby?

            I do have a suggestion. Have a discussion with the principles – document it – and make it clear that a second report is automatic referral to the authorities along with the documentation from the first incident.

            I think that might satisfy many of the women – to stop that behavior without ruining the guy – the first – and only the first time.

  6. “My instinct is to dismiss that figure as a figment of the feminist fringe”

    Well, the instincts of a middle-aged, financially comfortably, straight white male who is able to insulate himself from the hazards of society is just as good as actual research or the lived experiences of campus women.

    “to real rape”/”rape that everyone recognizes as rape does occur”

    I love that in your worldview it’s liberals who have defined rape down meanwhile not a dozen entries down on this very blog TooManyTaxes described transferring revenue from the Dulles Toll Road to transit as “rail worshippers raping the DTR.” But hey, defining rape as the reallocation of funds is okay, right?

    But tell us, Jim, which of the following situations passes the Bacon threshold for real rape:

    1) A strange man jumps out from a bush and forcibly penetrates a woman’s vagina/anus with his penis.

    2) A man grabs a woman by the back of her head and forces her to preform fellatio.

    3) An assailant threatens physical violence unless sex acts are preformed.

    4) A man says no but is forcibly aroused by a woman until she can perform sex on him. He doesn’t fight back because he doesn’t want to be accused of hitting a woman.

    5) A wife says no to her husband but he continues anyway.

    6) A woman agrees to vaginal sex but the man anally inserts himself against her will or express consent.

    7) Any sex act that is prefaced with ‘No’ but in which the person who said ‘No’ reaches an orgasm.

    8) A man forcibly inserts a finger/fingers inside either a woman’s vagina or anus.

    9) Sex where one party deceived another into thinking they were having sex with someone else.

    10) Any of the above where a shot of whiskey is involved.

    “the casual sex of the hook-up culture”

    Because that never happened before, RIGHT? The flappers in the 20s weren’t accused of this? They didn’t hand out condoms to the GIs during World War II? There wasn’t an entire free love movement or Summer of Love in the 60s? There weren’t cocaine disco bashes and swingers parties in the 70s? The 80s were so chaste and pure that AIDS never got off the starting block, yeah?

    It’s been said that every generation thinks it invented sex. It seems there’s a corollary that every generation thinks the ones that follow invent casual sex.

    “Feminists have discovered a ‘culture of rape’ in what are arguably the most thoroughly enlightened and liberal institutions in the entire country, our colleges and universities.”

    So there’s a culture of laziness among poor people. Black people have a culture that focuses on athletics at the expense of academics. There’s a culture in the feminist fringe to suggest that every time a man breathes too hard on a woman it’s an assault. But it’s beyond the pale to suggest there’s a culture of rape in the broader society. Or maybe just beyond the pale to suggest that it’s infected his beloved alma mater. It does fit the pattern….debt is going to kill us all, it’s the worst thing that the government or an institution can incur! Unless it’s UVA, because UVA is just too awesome.

    “some percentage of which, in retrospect, are worthy of criminal punishment and some percentage of which participants simply regret.”

    No one does this. I never did this. None of my friends ever did this. College students are terribly stupid, too stupid to be allowed the freedom of college, if we’re being honest. But they know the difference between “I was violated” and “I hope my friends never find out I slept with that person.”

    According to RAINN, only 40 percent of rapes are reported to the police in the first place, so people reporting “regrettable sex” as rape is not happening in non-trivial amounts.

    • I agree with Don. The story of the gang rape at UVa is hard to believe. Perhaps the behavior exhibited by today’s young people is so alien to men of Don’s and my generation that we simply can’t fathom it. Perhaps we’re naive, I don’t know. If the story is true, UVA and/or Charlottesville authorities need to track down the rapists, convict them and send them to prison. If the story is not true, then there is a twisted young woman telling a pack of lies — and that needs to be exposed as well.

      • Of course it’s hard for men of your generation to believe. You grew up when there were three channels on the television that were so antiseptic characters couldn’t be heard flushing a toilet, nothing troublesome was put above the fold lest it disrupt people’s breakfast and there were certain things good people just didn’t talk about. That doesn’t mean horrific things like gang rape weren’t happening, it just means they went unreported in the mainstream.

        This, by the way, is another good example of why so many rape victims are reluctant to come forward:

        “If the story is not true, then there is a twisted young woman telling a pack of lies — and that needs to be exposed as well.”

        I can’t think of any other situation where a victim is constantly posited as a liar, but I see it all the time when rape allegations are made.

    • LifeOnTheFallLine I guess you are no more another left-wing speech censor. I have overstepped your sensibilities by my exercise of my First Amendment rights. Maybe we can have Terry McAuliffe resign and you can run Virginia as Joe Stalin. You are an elitist, self-focused, arrogant ass, who opposes anyone who dares to think and speak differently. You ought to apply for a job on the WaPo editorial board. Sorry I offended your royal sensibilities.

      • TMT, I love your contributions to B.R., I agree with you most of the time, and I share your frustration with LifeOnTheFallLine, but please don’t engage in ad hominem attacks. If you disagree with his ideas, explain what’s wrong with them. Don’t attack him personally.

        • His statement “I love that in your worldview it’s liberals who have defined rape down meanwhile not a dozen entries down on this very blog TooManyTaxes described transferring revenue from the Dulles Toll Road to transit as ‘rail worshippers raping the DTR.’ But hey, defining rape as the reallocation of funds is okay, right?” seems pretty much like an attack on my ability to address issues in a reasonable manner of my chosing. How dare I use words differently than LOFL believes is appropriate. I’m happy to pull back my horns, but I’d like to see this reciprocated.

          I believe my choice of words is appropriate and resent some defining what is acceptable speech. I don’t care what he/she argues on the merits of this topic, but don’t like being lectured for being politically incorrect.

        • What’s your frustration with me, esteemed blog leader?

          • re: ” What’s your frustration with me, esteemed blog leader?”

            you’re too good using a sharp tongue dismantling right wing blather turning into the steaming pile it really is sometimes.

          • LifeOnTheFallLine

            I appreciate the compliment Larry, thank you!

      • “I guess you are no more another left-wing speech censor.”

        Show me where I said you couldn’t say or should be banned from saying what you said?

        “I have overstepped your sensibilities by my exercise of my First Amendment rights. Maybe we can have Terry McAuliffe resign and you can run Virginia as Joe Stalin.”

        Yes, that would make it a First Amendment issue indeed, if I was somehow named Joe Stalin and put in charge of the Virginia government. As it is, I’m not a governmental actor so this has nothing to do with the First Amendment, first of all, and second of all, where did I say what you said offended my sensibilities?

        “You are an elitist”

        Prove with examples from here or anywhere else that I come down on the side of society’s elites.

        “self-focused”

        Prove with examples from here or anywhere else that I spend an inordinate amount of time talking about myself.

        “arrogant”

        Subjective, but possibly true.

        “ass”

        Subjective, and certainly true.

        “who opposes anyone who dares to think and speak differently.”

        So you never disagree with people who think and differently from yourself? Like you’re doing right now, for example?

        “Sorry I offended your royal sensibilities.”

        Again, where did I say I was offended by what you said? What I said was I thought it intellectually inconsistent that Jim was upset about the supposed liberal broadening of what physical and sexual actions taken against a person constitute rapes meanwhile he seemingly had no problem with you defining rape as the transfer of funds gathered from one source and using them on a project from which they weren’t gathered.

        If you want to define rape as “moving money gathered here to be used on a project there,” be my guest, I’m in no position nor do I posses the inclination to stop you.

        But if you have a problem with your use of the word rape in such a situation being used in a conversation about the rape of a young woman on a college campus, it’s up to you to sort out why that might be, not blame me for saying things I never said.

        • I find LOTFL line responses to be serious zingers but he’s not really personally attacked anyone and did not deserve an attack on himself either.

          As TMT himself just said – go after the issue

  7. If it makes you feel better, though, UVA is in some pretty august company when it comes to being under title IX investigation for mishandling sexual assault cases:
    https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/236729563?access_key=key-RWPBZB5UWnFUCeHXHZOj&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

    I can’t find the list of all 86, but that’s 76 of them. Take a look and see how many of them would be considered in the top 100 universities in the country.

    • re: those dang liberals pumping up rape definitions and statistics

      this is where you realize Jim has once again been dipping into the hard right blather sites – which blame everything from bad breath to the color of the POTUS on liberals…

  8. LOTFL has made some valid points including the idea that no matter how many actual rapes there are – the initial response of some (usually guys) is to say “yeah, but some of them are not real – they’re liberal/feminist lies”.

    this typifies much of the right’s thinking these days whether it’s climate change, or immigration or education or entitlements.

    so .. the “liberal media” and leftists are changing history and actually conspiring to change facts to fool the gullible … and the right’s job – often with Mr. Limbaugh at the fore on Women’s issues is to push back.

    The right will feing insult and injury when Limbaugh is said to be their voice – that they do not share Mr. Limbaugh’s views – but tell me how many on the right have come out and openly discredited Limbaugh and make clear he does not represent the right’s views on women’s issues. He’s in their tribe and they don’t speak bad of him…

    We have similar narratives along the lines of blacks and single parent families and drug culture…

    Education is bad union teachers….and the common core “conspiracy”.

    voter suppression is justified because there are clear and convincing examples of voter fraud – usually along the lines of .0001%

    immigration reform is a dastardly plan to pump up the leftist voter base…

    but for sure one of the most prominent are women’s issues with Limbaugh the frequent leading voice of the right – without virtually a single person on the right discrediting his views… but instead- repeating them is more subtle ways.. same message different messengers.. all parroting the original message.

    Anyone to the left of Limbaugh’s stated views shared unrequited by the right, that DOES question those attitudes is then labeled as a leftist if male or a feminist if female.

    and then the right uses each of these “defining” issues as litmus tests for liberals.

    if you utter any view that contradict the right’s doctrine on that issue – you are “outed” as a leftist liberal. Seen it here in BR – over and over.

    It’s as if McCarthy has been reborn and decided that the original definition of communists should have included “leftists”! Oh wait…

    • Please show me one case where anybody of whatever political stripe has said that what happened at that fraternity (as reported in the Rolling Stone) is not real. The only question I have is whether the police have arrested the alleged perpetrators yet. If what was reported in the Rolling Stone was what happened and the college administrators looked the other way there needs to be sanctions against the college and the administrators involved (as well as prison sentences for the “men” involved).

      This has nothing to do with sexism, feminism or sexual harassment. It has everything to do with the multiple extremely serious felonies being committed and nobody giving a damn. That needs to be addressed quickly and sharply. Where is the follow up reporting? Are the alleged perpetrators sitting in jail cells awaiting a bond hearing? Isn’t that where they belong? Are our state politicians outraged that this could happen at UVA while administrators look the other way? Are there hearings set to determine what the hell is going on in Charlottesville?

      You seem very interested in left vs right, feminism, etc. Yet you don’t seem to have much to say about prosecuting the alleged perpetrators of this crime. Nor do you have much to say about what should be done with the college administrators who looked the other way.

      • ” You seem very interested in left vs right, feminism, etc. Yet you don’t seem to have much to say about prosecuting the alleged perpetrators of this crime. Nor do you have much to say about what should be done with the college administrators who looked the other way.”

        1. – Have you noticed in commentary in this blog, words like “leftists” and “feminists” and “liberals” in the context of discussions about rape, sexism, etc? I did not initiate, I responded.

        2. – Have you listened to Mr. Limbaugh’s thinking and read right-leaning websites viewpoints?

        I did not bring in the “left” on the issue but it gets brought in – even when the initial discussion is about rape.. the “skeptics” will do as Limbaugh does and make clear that “some” rape is not.. that’s its part of feminist activism to go after sexism…. etc.

        You actually see some of this thinking coming from some of the Colleges sometimes…

        when you say “alleged perpetrators” – the “right” these days has “concerns” that feminist activists are driving the issue….

        I gave you a solution.

        First time – the school documents the incident if it is not clear cut . Second time, no exceptions – it gets referred to the authorities along with the documentation from the first incident.

        In other words – the Schools should be more than scrupulous and probably should take a poll of all women on the campus – as well as women Alumni – and craft their policies to conform to how a good cross-section of women feel about it – since they are almost always the victims… and documented cases of women sexually victimizing men is comically infinitesimal.

        but you should ask yourself Don – WHY the right makes this issue about liberalism to start with – which is what I was reacting to – did not bring it up myself.

      • re: ” You seem very interested in left vs right,”

        well it’s what comes from the right now days. There used to be voices from the right that were fiscally conservative and socially moderate – that tempered the more radical views but those voices are gone and now virtually every issue is characterized in terms of what “liberal thought” is on the issue…

        The John Birchers and Evangelicals have taken over the GOP as we knew it and turned it into a virtual 24/7 hate machine on just about every issue you can think of… with voices like Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Pallin now defining what sexism, race, ethnicity, marriage, parenting, education, health care – is – and is not….in terms of “liberal thought”.

        When most of the Republican party these days denies climate, thinks the earth is 6000 years old, that birth control is abortion, that public education should become private voucher schools, etc, etc..

        the moderate voices are gone and in it’s place the principle speakers on the right on issues like rape and sexism are the Limbaughs.. with not a soul in the GOP denouncing those views and making a more moderate case.

        I’m socially moderate and fiscally conservative and I’m more fiscally conservative that most who claim to be “conservative” these days.

        and I DO THINK that men defining what sexism is or is not – is ludicrous and even worse they (like Limbaugh) actually seek to marginalize and dis-credit – WOMEN – calling any of them who have views to the left of Limbaugh – “feminists”.

        we should take a poll of the guys on the right and ask them what percentage of women are “feminists” then show them how women themselves hold views that the right classifies as “feminist”.

        If a women tells me that a behavior is sexist – and another women agrees – and a third – I do not call all three of them “feminists” but the right has no problem what-so-ever doing so…

    • FYI –

      Here is a sensible article on the matter. McAuliffe should call the state police and order an investigation. Or, he could stand around and make oddball comments about Joe McCarthy.

      http://www.roanoke.com/opinion/editorials/our-view-gang-rapes-at-uva-fraternities/article_72ab901e-a34a-5621-b7ff-e3d92cb69948.html

      • “Ultimately, this isn’t about choice of adjectives; it’s about allegations of multiple sexual assaults.”

        Bingo!

      • I am really begining to like the Roanoke Times:

        “The other is that when “Jackie” finally did go to the head of the university’s Sexual Misconduct Board in 2013, she was given multiple options – she could go to police, or file a complaint with the board which would have resulted in a “formal resolution” by a jury of students and faculty, or she could pursue an “informal resolution,” essentially an apology from her alleged attacker.

        Umm, rape is a crime.

        Universities don’t do society any favors by treating it as mere “misconduct.”

        You shouldn’t either, governor.

        Call the State Police.”

  9. Oh, Don. Maybe Peter G was right and we do need to more to get the liberal arts back into our STEM education.

    I never said I never had drunken hookups. What I said that was in all my drunken hookups and in all my male friends drunken hookups and in all my female friends drunken hookups no one ever let the accusations fly later. Because people know the difference between “I wish I hadn’t had that sex” and “I didn’t or couldn’t agree to that sex.”

    Care to show your work and share any links to stories where the victim was embarrassed because of a pre-existing relationship and claimed rape and then the accused was kicked out and later successfully sued the school?

    I do, however, appreciate your faith in our legal system. I bet you don’t think OJ Simpson is a killer either.

    “Maybe I am naive but I have a hard time believing that college administrators would look the other way”

    You are. People had a hard time believing that Ford would build, market and sell cars known to be dangerous until Mother Jones found and published the Ford Pinto Memo. People didn’t believe that the United States had bombed Cambodia and Laos until Daniel Ellsberg produced the Pentagon Papers. People didn’t think the United States government would lie about the existence of weapons of mass destruction in a foreign country until we invaded that country and found nothing there.

    And here’s why you’re naive; you correctly state:

    ” Colleges are really not at all prepared to conduct investigations and they certainly can be sued. Beyond that, the police and prosecutors usually won’t get involved.”

    Where you limit it to drunken rape, but then you say:

    “Forcible rape of an unwilling participant is a whole different matter.”

    And this is where you naivete kicks in. You assume that the university or a cop or a prosecutor or a judge would see this the same way as it’s presented in the RS article. You assume a defense team wouldn’t tear this girl’s story to shreds.

    “You said you dumped the drink out, but did you really?”

    “You admit that you willingly went upstairs, but later claimed that there was a forcible gang rape including a classmate. Isn’t it just as likely you got performed consensual group sex with a classmate and got embarrassed at the idea of seeing him in class every week and decided to say this was forcible rape?”

    “You described your attacker as handsome and charming. If this is the case why would we have to rape when the hook-up culture at your college makes it that such a man could easily have sex without rape?”

    “You yourself have stated that you questioned whether or not you did something to invite this upon yourself, did you?”

    “Here are some character witnesses who admit to consensual sex with the defendant, your honor.”

    “There is no physical evidence present whatsoever your honor, what do we have other than the word of a girl who wouldn’t even go to the authorities after such a horrible incident to substantiate this claim?”

    In the existence of a system so hostile to victims – she was at a party, there was alcohol, she said she went upstairs willingly! – colleges are incredibly circumspect when it comes to making any moves on the sexual assault front. Because what seems like a clear cut case to observers sympathetic to the victim becomes something else when it enters a system where it can be reduced to “he said, she said” as if the two sides hold equal weight. They don’t want to be sued even if they win because it still takes time, money and resources. So they just set up administrative protocol where it makes it possible to look the other way while pretending to do something about the problem.

    And in an era where schools are in open competition for more and more students who wants to be known as “that school where the gang rape occurred?” Because that’s what it will be, even if the school does everything right and the appropriate parties are punished. For parents everywhere it won’t be “that’s the school that protects and seeks justice for students who get raped” it will be “that’s the school where that gang rape happened.”

    • “What I said that was in all my drunken hookups …”

      How drunk were your partners in these hookups? You see, if they were intoxicated they might not have been able to give informed consent regardless of how they may have acted under the influence. In that case you could certainly have been accused of sexual misconduct under most university definitions of the term.

      Do you really contend that never happens?

      Here is UVA’s policy:

      “Incapacitation” means the physical and/or mental inability to make informed, rational judgments. States of Incapacitation include, without limitation, sleep, blackouts, and flashbacks. Where alcohol is involved, one does not have to be intoxicated or drunk to be considered Incapacitated. Rather, Incapacitation is determined by how the alcohol consumed impacts a person’s decision-making capacity, awareness of consequences, and ability to make informed judgments. The question is whether the accused student knew, or a sober, reasonable person in the position of the accused student should have known, that the complainant was Incapacitated. Because Incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume that another person is Incapacitated and therefore unable to give Effective Consent. Being intoxicated or drunk is never a defense to a complaint of Sexual Misconduct under this Policy.”

      How many of all your drunken hookups might have qualified as sexual misconduct under that definition?

      • Probably more than one, but that’s not the point. The point isn’t whether or not they could have been construed as rape, but your assertion that women are using rape to explain away drunken, regrettable sex all the time, but there is no research that bears that out to be true and my personal experience doesn’t either. As I’ve said numerous times, people know the difference between “I wish I hadn’t done that” and “I wish I hadn’t had that done to me.”

        If a drunk driver runs over a drunk pedestrian the crime doesn’t magically disappear. If a drunk person sexually assaults another drunk person that doesn’t mean it wasn’t sexual assault.

        • I never said it happens “all the time”. I said it happens.

          “If a drunk person sexually assaults another drunk person that doesn’t mean it wasn’t sexual assault.” I couldn’t agree more so long as your definition of sexual assault is one person having sex with a person who doesn’t want to have sex. No means no. That’s rape. But go read the UVA policy again. Yes can mean no when the other person is incapacitated. So, what is incapacitated? ” Where alcohol is involved, one does not have to be intoxicated or drunk to be considered Incapacitated.” If both willing participants have been drinking are both guilty of sexual misconduct? When I had been drinking and my college girlfriend had not should she have refused to sleep with me even if both of us wanted to have sex?

          What percentage of the allegations of sexual assault on campus are cases of “no means no” or “obviously intoxicated” vs “not intoxicated or drunk but somehow incapacitated”? What percentage of the cases would have been taken by prosecutors if the victim went to the authorities?

          The problem with overly broad policies like the one from UVA is that those policies lump together drunken hookups and forcible rape into the same sexual misconduct bucket. Administrators then stupidly try to apply the same remedies to both. In the case of “Jackie” from the Rolling Stone article the administrator should have tried to convince “Jackie” to take her case to the police. Neither arbitration nor expulsion is reasonable punishment for the case described by the Rolling Stone. But that’s what the policy says for all cases of “sexual misconduct” so that’s what the administrator offered.

          Don’t you find the contention that ultra-liberal college administrators would cover up sexual assaults against women odd? Do you really think Teresa Sullivan is insensitive to the issue of rape on campus? Maybe the ridiculously broad definition of sexual misconduct generates so many cases of “he said, she said” around effective consent that the “no means no” cases (that are prosecutable) get lost.

          And I continue to ask the question that doesn’t seem to get answered – do the police have the seven alleged rapists in custody? If not, why not?

          • LifeOnTheFallLine

            You’re right, I inferred all the time from the “You bet.” That made it sound like a common occurrence. But if it’s not a common occurrence then why make it the focus in a discussion of the sexual assault experiences of women on college campuses?

            “If both willing participants have been drinking are both guilty of sexual misconduct?”

            Sure, and the man is just as capable of filing a sexual misconduct charge under those conditions as a woman.

            “When I had been drinking and my college girlfriend had not should she have refused to sleep with me even if both of us wanted to have sex?”

            If she wanted to protect herself from rape charges she absolutely should have.

            “What percentage of the cases would have been taken by prosecutors if the victim went to the authorities?”

            I posted several links in response to JNL upthread that shows exactly how willing authorities are to move on rape cases at all. Feel free to avail yourself them.

            ” those policies lump together drunken hookups and forcible rape into the same sexual misconduct bucket.”

            So we should have the same legal standard for rape as we do for murder? Murder I, murder II, manslaughter, etc?

            “Don’t you find the contention that ultra-liberal college administrators would cover up sexual assaults against women odd?”

            First, I don’t accept the premise that college administrators are ultra-liberal, but don’t you find the contention that ultra-moral Catholic bishops would cover up sexual assaults against children?

            “Do you really think Teresa Sullivan is insensitive to the issue of rape on campus?”

            I don’t know her, but I don’t find it hard to believe. I’ve already laid out my case for why she would be, if the hierarchy even allows such cases to reach her desk in the first place.

            “Maybe the ridiculously broad definition of sexual misconduct generates so many cases of ‘he said, she said’ around effective consent that the ‘no means no’ cases (that are prosecutable) get lost.”

            Maybe the ridiculous society we live in where pretty much every case of rape can be turned into “he said, she said” generates so many cases that prosecutors don’t want to touch that we’re ignoring cases where effective consent has been violated.

  10. Hey, you should be happy to know that UVA has decided to hire an independent counsel to investigate the college’s policies and responses to sexual assault and rape claims.

    https://news.virginia.edu/content/university-rector-issues-statement-regarding-sexual-assault

    Guy’s name is Mark Filip and it looks like he’s got a pretty solid resume, former acting US AG, former Deputy AG, former district court judge…sounds solid.

    Looks like he got his JD from Harvard Law (currently under Title IX investigation alongside UVA) and was also a member of Phi Kappa Psi.

    Whoops.

    • UVA’s administration is hopeless.

      The first thing they should do is shut down all fraternity events.

      The second thing they should do is demand that law enforcement investigate the allegations of forcible rape covered in the Rolling Stone article.

      The third thing they should do is bring in the Virginia State Police to run a full and complete investigation of all the allegations (roofies, other assaults, etc)

      Instead, they bumble around with obviously conflicted lawyers. As an aside, Mark Herring accepted Fillip before he decided that was a bad idea.

  11. This blog post is so offensive and the decision to publish it so poorly made, I am tempted to stop reading all together. You sound like Todd Akin trying to distinguish between rape and legitimate rape. If your daughter, sister or mother was sexually assaulted, would you question whether she was “really, and truly raped?” “Or were you just to drunk to remember” or “Oh, you were just groped against your will.” This has been going on on college campuses for decades, nationwide. It is not a question of “if campus rape is a problem.” Writing it off as a symptom of college-age people just being horny is a slippery slope to saying women get what they deserve when they go to a party, or have a drink, or to follow your logic, attend a co-ed institution. Jim, I am sorely disappointed in you for publishing this. I hope your daughters are too. You have let them down. Shame on you all.

    • ……like I said.. guys telling women what rape is or is not – IS offensive…to many women….

      but men never learn.

      • I just provided a link with ten examples of false accusations of rape on college campuses. The colleges ended up “settling” with the wrongly accused.

        Any crime that carries sanctions must be clearly defined. It cannot be whatever anybody decides it might be. I don’t care who might be offended by the idea that a crime must be defined before it can be fairly prosecuted. Whoever finds that offensive just isn’t worth worrying about.

        More importantly, in the case at hand, there is no question of whether the accusation is a crime. It is a heinous crime that carries massive penalties. The other accusations in the article of women being slipped “roofies” and raped is also clearly a crime with significant penalties.

        I suspect that nothing would reduce the odds of something like this happening in the future more than the successful prosecution of those involved in these accusations along with the imposition of lengthy prison sentences.

        You want to blame society. I want to prosecute the perpetrators. You tell me which one will actually improve the situation.

    • Anne, I’m sorry you interpreted my post the way you did, but I think you’re reading into it things I did not say and did not intend. You described my view as, “Writing it off as a symptom of college-age people just being horny.”

      You TOTALLY misread my intent. The sex drive is intrinsic to human nature. It has always been with us, and always will. Males are the predators in our species; always have been, always will. The problem of rape always has been with us, and always will. Gerald Cooper wrote me an email yesterday reminding me of UVa’s “Lawn scandal” of some 60 years ago in which three UVa students gang banged a young woman visitor.

      The question is, what do we do about it? Once upon a time, society put into place elaborate safeguards that, while far from perfect, worked a lot better than what we have now. Those safeguards have been obliterated. If we believe the most alarming figures, campus rape is indeed an epidemic — even as rape for society at large has been declining. What the hell is going on? I thought colleges and universities were supposed to be paragons of progressive liberalism, feminism and tolerance. How could the problem of rape be *worse* in colleges and universities than in society at large? That suggests to me that there is something very wrong in higher ed today.

      As for your slippery slope argument, I don’t go down the slope. I don’t say that “women get what they deserve when they go to a party, or have a drink, or … attend a co-ed institution.” Of course they don’t deserve to be sexually assaulted.

      I *do* say that if a woman goes to a party in which everyone gets totally blitzed, and she gets totally blitzed, too, and people sit around and play sex games and strip and fondle one another, which they videotape and upload to porn channels, and she has an unwanted sexual encounter with someone who’s as trashed as she is, yeah, I do say that’s very different from a young woman following a young man into a bedroom for some romance and getting gang banged instead.

      Do you see a difference between the two scenarios, or do you think I’m pulling a Todd Akin?

      • do you mean Jim, if I, as a guy, go to a party … and there is horseplay and grab-butt going on … etc.. that I then deserve for some other guy to beat the crap out of me because it’s also his idea of horseplay?

        you’re showing Todd Akin here.. in full glory… and yes. it does seem to happen to Conservatives way more than liberals.

        • Larry, if you go to a party where you know everyone is going to get drunk off their butts, and you get drunk off your butt, and you engage in horseplay, and then some drunk guy drops you on your head and breaks your neck, yeah, I think that’s a very different situation from you walking down the street and some guy jumping you and beating the crap out of you. I wouldn’t say you “deserved” to have a broken neck, but I wouldn’t charge the drunk guy with aggravated assault or manslaughter.

          • Nope. You do not see the difference between a purposeful assault and horsing around….

            Are you not going to go to a campus party where there is drinking and horsing around – if you are a single woman? Should you fear going as far as you want to go in participating and not fear some animal is going to prey on you?

            I’m not a woman. You’re not a woman. But I think I see what women are talking about… where you have to always be on your guard or some idiot is going to claim you invited them to assault you.

            This is why I advocate one warning then refer to authorities after than – period.

          • Larry, sometimes you can be infuriating. OF COURSE women should feel free to go to a party and not have to fear that some animal will prey on her! Duh! Do you seriously think that I’m saying otherwise?

            On the other hand, do I think that women who engage in this kind of behavior — (WARNING: pornographic material) http://www.xvideos.com/video812884/college_sex_party — are putting themselves in ethically ambiguous situations should unwanted sex occur, yeah, I do.

          • “Larry, sometimes you can be infuriating. OF COURSE women should feel free to go to a party and not have to fear that some animal will prey on her! Duh! Do you seriously think that I’m saying otherwise?”

            in a way – yes.

            “On the other hand, do I think that women who engage in this kind of behavior — (WARNING: Offensive material) http://www.xvideos.com/video812884/college_sex_party — are putting themselves in ethically ambiguous situations should unwanted sex occur, yeah, I do.”

            of the women that end up preyed upon – how many are doing what you say they might be – and why do you focus on the ones that “did wrong” rather than the ones wrong was done to?

            sorry to infuriate you – but I can assure you – that the way you have framed this – infuriates many women the same way that Todd Akin did.. and, despite the fact that you are a principled person – you apparently do not see this.

            Here’s a thought. Invite some woman you know to contribute their thoughts… perhaps Ann…who just commented. I think you need to actually hear from a few women.. and it might change you.

            oh – and your sex video.. what do you think the principle purpose is at xvideos? Would you be surprised that college guys view these videos with relish and fantasize about the next party?

        • A drunk man and a drunk woman have sex because they want to have sex. Neither says “no”. Both say “yes”. Both are intoxicated. Given that neither can give effective consent – who raped whom?

          A better example in your scenario would be that you and a friend get drunk and jointly agree to a boxing match. After a few punches are thrown the friend connects and breaks your jaw.

          Maybe neither of you drunks should have agreed to the boxing match. But you did. After that it’s kind of hard to assess blame for the results, no?

  12. LOTFL – Sorry for the strong reaction in the spirit of moving on as the holiday season starts.

  13. “This is why I advocate one warning then refer to authorities after than – period.”

    The seven idiots in the Rolling Stone article deserve no warning. They deserve to be incarcerated.

    • re: ” The seven idiots in the Rolling Stone article deserve no warning. They deserve to be incarcerated.”

      I’m betting had there been a one-warning system -none of the 7 would still be in school and some already incarcerated.

      there is an attitude here that one guy did something not right the very first time in his life and does not deserve to have his life ruined over “one” mistake.

      My suspects are that scum like these 7 – are serial offenders… not clueless innocents who got caught up in the moment.

      Hey Don – give yourself a little test – do you recall in college anyone inviting you to join in a gang bang upstairs during a frat party ?

      I don’t know you from adam other than here but I’m betting you’re not that kind of a guy – and any such invite to you would have been alarming to you… even in your wild days…

      and as a guy – did you know other guys who “specialized” in “scoring” and had optimized their techniques?

      once in a while some poor schmuck makes one heck of a mistake and falls in the wrong crowd the very first time in his life.

      the rest of the time – it’s called herding with birds of a feather.

  14. Oddly missing from this discussion (or any other discussion that I can find) is any reliable evidence of guilt on the part of the accused beyond the allegations (including alleged cultural attitudes) described in the Rolling Stones article.

    Could someone fill me in on that outstanding evidence to date?

  15. This is one more blow to UVa, and it makes me sad and embarrassed. I feel for the 18 year old women (and men) who go to fraternity parties, end up drunk, and end up doing things they didn’t want to do. I feel for the men at the fraternities who think it is ok to have sex with a woman who is drunk. They are dishonorable. The culture that accepts that and promotes it is sick.

    It’s true Bacon that there is a cultural issue (which seems to be your explanation for everything) but doesn’t the University have some responsibility for the culture. And don’t the fraternities have some responsibility? The fraternity culture is embedded in the University and its contribution to the University is mixed at best. Fraternity parties are a fixture of University social life – is that good? It’s been a long time since I went to a fraternity party – hated them and hated the fraternity culture – the parties were primarily excuses to get drunk and to act out – to bond by doing things that you would never do if you weren’t drunk? Has that changed? It should.

    Unfortunately it is part of the culture and I suspect that those who run things now accept it because they did it or they just accept it because that is the way things are. They shouldn’t accept it.

    I would hope that the administration and the fraternity system would take this seriously and not fluff it off as “boys being boys”, and accept it as the serious threat to the honor of UVa that it is. Those who try to sweep this issue under the rug as mere feminist posturing are idiots and I hope they don’t have mothers or daughters. The University should aspire to something more.

    • You know – this has been going on a while and the folks who run the University has to know about it – and yet it took a magazine article for them to react.

      You know what – UVA better hope that other women don’t step forward… to recount their experiences and how the University responded to them.

      This is a great University that has self-inflicted serious damage on their own reputation and are proving once again – how our institutions today are losing the trust and confidence of many

      AND – that we ought to remember – that institutions are run by humans and it’s humans that ultimately can seriously damage what humans before them spent decades on carefully building.

    • Richard, I’m glad we agree on a few things. Having hook-up sex with a drunk woman is indeed dishonorable. My wife and I have had discussions with my son, now 16, about how important it is to respect women and how he is responsible for his own behavior, no matter how drunk he gets — he’s responsible for getting drunk in the first place! Further, I have zero sympathy for men who treat women as sex objects. The behavior that occurs at some of these fraternities is utterly reprehensible. If the gang rape occurred as described, that was beyond reprehensible. That was a criminal act, and the perpetrators should be convicted and sent to prison for a very long time. Finally, UVa’s policy of looking the other way (before the issue became a national one) represents a total abrogation of institutional responsibility. So, we agree on all that, right?

      Regarding the “culture” aspect of this debate… Fraternity culture has always been more licentious than student culture as a whole. I didn’t join a fraternity either. I rushed a few times and was generally repelled by what I saw — and that was 40 years ago, before the hook-up culture. What’s happened since then, I would hypothesize, is that as society has become more sexually permissive, and as the sexual behavior has become more pornified, especially among the younger generation, the fraternity culture has taken these behaviors to extremes as well. Not all fraternities, but some of them for sure.

      Does the university have a responsibility for the culture? Absolutely! The university sets a lot of the rules. And what I’ve argued is that the university’s no-rules approach has permitted a depraved drunken-college-sex-party culture to take root. Essentially, we’re talking about Lord of the Flies for 18 – to 22-year-olds, set in the fraternity house instead of a desert island. The no-rules regime permits students to descend into a state of barbarism. (Actually that comparison is not fair to barbarians, who did enforce rules of sexual behavior; although we probably wouldn’t agree with those rules, at least they had some). Then university administrations express shock and dismay at the resulting rape epidemic!

      My problem with the feminists is not their opposition to rape, it’s the way they try to foist the entire blame on men. Women can engage in any reckless or licentious behavior they want, they can make terrible decisions while drunk or stoned, but they should not be held responsible. Only men are held responsible, not matter how drunk and/or stoned and mentally incapacitated all of the parties were.

      My advice to my son and daughters both isdon’t get so drunk and/or stoned that you’re incapable of sound judgment and make decisions you regret. If you get intoxicated and bad things happen, it’s your fault for getting intoxicated!

      As I try to think through the ethics of this, I think it comes down to this. Everyone needs to accept responsibility for their behavior. I see the feminists as trying to absolve women from that responsibility.

      • “Women can engage in any reckless or licentious behavior they want, they can make terrible decisions while drunk or stoned, but they should not be held responsible. Only men are held responsible”

        Women can be charged with rape under these conditions just the same that men can. The law cuts both ways in that regard, so how is it that women aren’t being held responsible for their behavior, exactly?

        • LOTFL, Nobody’s charging women with rape on campus. That’s a total non-issue.

          I think everyone can agree in the abstract that a woman should give “consent” before a man engages in sex with her, and that if a man refuses to respect her wish, he should be punished.

          That seems clear enough, but in real world situations, there’s typically a lot of gray area. What constitutes “consent”? How strong do the signals, verbal or nonverbal, have to be? Can a woman give consent if she’s intoxicated? What responsibility is it of the man to read those signals if he, too, is intoxicated? The list of questions is endless.

          What we’re seeing on campus is a weird bifurcation between politically correct thinking on the part of college administrations, in which the onus is entirely on the man to divine the inner mind of the woman in order to calculate consent, and the real world of drunken college sex parties and other libertine behavior that makes it difficult, if not impossible, in many cases to determine consent.

          In the case of the alleged planned and premeditated gang rape of a young woman at UVa, there’s no any ambiguity (at least in the way the story has been told). In the case of someone who slips a woman a date-rape drug and has sex with her while she’s unconscious, there’s no ambiguity. But many cases are not so clear cut.

          • If a woman went to a non-college party and subsequently reported rape to the police – would they be asking her these questions before they certified the charges?

            If you went to the police and said someone assaulted you- would they be asking you what you did to provoke the assault?

            what you seem to be advocating is that there be no intermediate step with the College – just go straight the police and get a rape kit and be done with it.

            no?

            Is that what women should be doing ?

          • “What you seem to be advocating is that there be no intermediate step with the College – just go straight the police and get a rape kit and be done with it.”

            I don’t know how you draw that conclusion.

            I’m saying that sexual transgressions cover a broad spectrum of behavior. Calling every transgression “rape” is not terribly helpful. The punishment needs to fit the offense. And some alleged offenses may not be punishable at all when all the circumstances are known.

          • and who do you think should decide that issue – the college or the police?

            should college women who think they have been assaulted not bother with reporting it to the college and just go straight to the police?

          • I don’t know who should decide that issue. I haven’t thought about it.

          • I’m a little taken aback by your answer here.. given the issue involving the college’s behavior in dealing with these types of accusations.

            Do you think the Police would be asking the types of questions you have been asking before they charge someone?

            Are women making a mistake in reporting the incident to the College if the college is going to ask the kinds of questions you have been….??? before they take action – much less refer it to police?

          • LifeOnTheFallLine

            “Nobody’s charging women with rape on campus. That’s a total non-issue.”

            Yes, but they could. So it’s not a non-issue. It shows that men are having the sex they want with the consent they want. There are women that aren’t. That doesn’t mean the rules are a non-issue or that women aren’t being held responsible. What does holding women responsible even mean?

            “The list of questions is endless.”

            No, they aren’t. Here’s a real simple standard: would a judge in a court of law let you give testimony at that level of inebriation? If not, then consent cannot be assumed. If men have a problem with that then they should stop drinking with drunk women…personal responsibility, right?

      • Jim, I appreciate what you’re saying here and think it’s a far more considered response than your original post came across.

        My only remaining objection is the continuing assertion that large numbers of women are crying sexual assault or rape after drunken sex that they regret the next day. I wish I could put my hands on the citation, but the number of women who falsely accuse men of rape is extremely low. Just re-read the RS article about Jackie and other women’s experience speaking up. Why would any woman want to go through that if not because something truly terrible happened to them? Those are the women that UVA has failed and for whom this national outrage is felt.

        The Duke lacrosse players’ story was a horrible, regrettably media-hyped deviation from the norm. Stories like Jackie’s from 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago are popping all over the place–UVA has even created an official portal for women to share them! It may be worse now in a more permissive, pornogrified culture, but we are all now learning that it has always been there. Instead of splitting hairs about the types of encounters about which women are and are not entitled to cry foul, let’s just leave it that we all agree that this culture at UVA and other universities and the administrations’ blind eyes or worse must end.

        • College sexual assaults are the Bill Cosby of the Collegiate world.

          Any college that says “we did not know this was going on” needs to be slapped like Curly in a 3 stooges act.

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